Europe: In or Out

[Soulman]

Soulman, JF and MS, and anyone who can see what's going on, when are other people going to finally wake up.

I would have thought that seeing as the population of Brighton and Hove is around about 280,000, and that after subtracting emigration from immigration in 2015, the net immigration was 330,000, then this amount of immigration per YEAR, can not be sustained. Mention controlled immigration and you are immediately shoved in the racist camp.
The stats were put up by Gwylan "The group that is most firmly opposed is the Over-65s; the group most firmly in support are the Under-30s and in large numbers".
Well these youngsters MIGHT be the ones that in the future complain about lack of school places, infrastructure and jobs etc.
I worry for my children and their future if immigration is not controlled.
So for this reason and many others i have to vote OUT.

 

[Gwylan]

Well these youngsters MIGHT be the ones that in the future complain about lack of school places, infrastructure and jobs etc.

Maybe. But they'll also have the option of working elsewhere in Europe (as several people on NSC do) and, even more importantly, studying in Europe. My son's only 10 but he's already worried about the cost of going to uni. Courses are cheap or even free in other European countries: that's going to be increasingly attractive to kids.

One of those links I posted said something like "young people recognise it's a two-way street". This point is too often forgetten: older people aren't going to be interested in their careers, they're retired or near retirement, but young people are very interested and want as much choice as possible

 

[5ways]

really? seem to be overlooking some of the arguments on the pro-EU side, some which you've even made yourself, and complete ignoring the consequences of the current arrangements. we've already ceded much sovereignty to EU, we can no longer pass laws or set rules on a range of subjects because they have to conform to EU laws. classic example is VAT, which our government is not allowed to zero rate or even reduce, except as a temporary measure. cf church repair exemption, digital books and sanitary pads.

What arguments on the pro-EU side? Yes we've decided to pool sovereignty in some areas, but we retain absolute sovereignty to walk away from it all. Clawing some of this back is one of the aims of the negotiations and I hope it succeeds.

 

[Soulman]

Maybe. But they'll also have the option of working elsewhere in Europe (as several people on NSC do) and, even more importantly, studying in Europe. My son's only 10 but he's already worried about the cost of going to uni. Courses are cheap or even free in other European countries: that's going to be increasingly attractive to kids.

One of those links I posted said something like "young people recognise it's a two-way street". This point is too often forgetten: older people aren't going to be interested in their careers, they're retired or near retirement, but young people are very interested and want as much choice as possible

Quote "more importantly, studying in Europe."
I would imagine that many would like to study in the country they live in.

Quote " older people aren't going to be interested in their careers, they're retired or near retirement"
I would like to think that most parents are interested in their children's careers, the opportunities and their future, i certainly am.
I am also concerned how my children will be able to afford to get a property whilst 330,000 are coming in a YEAR.

It's ok though, we shall just build thousands and thousands of houses rather than control immigration.
How about the 400 odd homes going up in Sompting village, 600 behind the David Lloyd centre in Durrington and the thousands in Angmering......will this help the traffic, school places, doctors surgeries etc.....those homes plus others around the country will soon be swallowed up if 330,000 a YEAR are let in.
Do you not think controlled immigration is not a good idea.
A bad example i know here, but on match days there is often a queue outside Dicks Bar.... It gets full, a few come out and the same amount then go in, they do not build a new bar to accommodate or just keep letting people in when it is packed.
If i had a 10 year old son i would be more worried about his future by staying in with uncontrolled 330,000 a year immigration. He might not actually want to go abroad to study and work.

 

[5ways]

What about the expats ?

"If the UK votes to leave in the EU referendum, two million British citizens could possibly lose their residency, employment and pension rights overnight – but no one is talking about it

The UK is acknowledged to be the country in the EU with the highest number of its citizens living abroad. No one knows exactly how many UK citizens have taken advantage of free movement, but estimates are that there are more or less the same number as EU citizens in the UK (about two million.)"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/12151896/Expats-are-being-frozen-out-on-Europe.html

 

[beorhthelm]

What arguments on the pro-EU side? Yes we've decided to pool sovereignty in some areas, but we retain absolute sovereignty to walk away from it all. Clawing some of this back is one of the aims of the negotiations and I hope it succeeds.

some commentators have made the claim that you cannot legally leave the EU, or imply similar by stressing the legal complication of doing so (cant have trade agreements with other nations is along this vein of thought). they tried the same with the Greece and the Euro last year. as for cute "pooling" wordage, you do not pool or share sovereignty, you either have it or you cede to some other authority.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

What about the expats ?

"If the UK votes to leave in the EU referendum, two million British citizens could possibly lose their residency, employment and pension rights overnight – but no one is talking about it

The UK is acknowledged to be the country in the EU with the highest number of its citizens living abroad. No one knows exactly how many UK citizens have taken advantage of free movement, but estimates are that there are more or less the same number as EU citizens in the UK (about two million.)"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/12151896/Expats-are-being-frozen-out-on-Europe.html

The word is could. Until someone points this out in law, then it's just more scaremongering.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Project Fear: Example ....lost count now

What about the expats ?

"If the UK votes to leave in the EU referendum, two million British citizens could possibly lose their residency, employment and pension rights overnight – but no one is talking about it

The UK is acknowledged to be the country in the EU with the highest number of its citizens living abroad. No one knows exactly how many UK citizens have taken advantage of free movement, but estimates are that there are more or less the same number as EU citizens in the UK (about two million.)"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/12151896/Expats-are-being-frozen-out-on-Europe.html

The very first line of that is completely untrue.

No one would lose anything overnight if we voted to leave. The status of EU nationals in the UK and Brits living in EU countries would be decided upon as part of a negotiated settlement probably taking several months if not longer.

 

[Gwylan]

Quote "more importantly, studying in Europe."
I would imagine that many would like to study in the country they live in.

I imagine many would rather pay no fees than £27k for their course. They may seem little to you but it's quite a lot to me.

It's ok though, we shall just build thousands and thousands of houses rather than control immigration.

But we're not though: we're not building anything like the number of houses we need. I totally agree with you that house prices are bonkers but there seems to be no plans to cut the costs.
I've read several examples in the past few months of people living in Barcelona, Denmark and France and commuting to work in London. It's a totally crazy way to behave but if it makes financial sense for them, why would you want to stop them doing that?
I'm very concerned about my kids' future but it strikes me that the better option is to prepare them for all options ... and if that means them moving abroad and paying sensible housing costs, so be it.

 

[5ways]

some commentators have made the claim that you cannot legally leave the EU, or imply similar by stressing the legal complication of doing so (cant have trade agreements with other nations is along this vein of thought). they tried the same with the Greece and the Euro last year. as for cute "pooling" wordage, you do not pool or share sovereignty, you either have it or you cede to some other authority.

You can leave the EU if you choose to. You can play hardball with Greece because leaving the EU would be like knocking the pillars off the temple of Athena, it would make a wreck of a ruin. Sovereignty is the ability to act upon your own volition independent of other actors. We cede this right partially but not permanently. We do this because we have collective interests. For example we pool sovereignty by being members of NATO but we can reclaim this if we wanted to. Similarly we could pull out of the nuclear test ban treaty and reclaim the sovereign right to test nuclear weapons.

 

[Soulman]

What about the expats ?

"If the UK votes to leave in the EU referendum, two million British citizens could possibly lose their residency, employment and pension rights overnight – but no one is talking about it

The UK is acknowledged to be the country in the EU with the highest number of its citizens living abroad. No one knows exactly how many UK citizens have taken advantage of free movement, but estimates are that there are more or less the same number as EU citizens in the UK (about two million.)"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/12151896/Expats-are-being-frozen-out-on-Europe.html

Again i think this is scaremongering.
"If the Referendum result is to leave the EU, there will likely be a ‘settlement’ period of at least 2 years. During this time, Britain and the EU will look at reciprocal arrangements, such as we now enjoy.

But remember, if Britain denies certain privileges to EU citizens wishing to live in the UK, then those privileges will almost certainly be withdrawn from us, the ex-pats."

I can not see Britain denying "certain privileges to EU citizens wishing to live in the UK," so i would think that ex pats would fare ok.

Also
"We could (for financial reasons) be forced to move back to the UK which already has limited housing stock and problems with the NHS. An alternative could be to take local citizenship. Are your language skills good enough for that?"

So you see even this article states " the UK which already has limited housing stock and problems with the NHS."
Could not controlled immigration have avoided that problem?

By the way this article is PRO EU, so obviously has a bias.

http://algarvedailynews.com/feature...s-the-eu-what-are-the-implications-for-expats

 

[Gwylan]

The very first line of that is completely untrue.

No it's not: the first line said "could possibly lose" - that's pretty meaningless. It could have said "could possible be forced to have a tattoo on their neck saying 'non EU' and would still not be untrue. I agree though that it's highly unlikely - just as it would be highly unlikely that non-British EU citizens would be asked to leave the UK

And if the vote were to leave, I'd imagine the negotiations on all aspects of the exit would take years, not months

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The word is could. Until someone points this out in law, then it's just more scaremongering.

Anyone who points out any potential disadvantage in leaving the EU is always, always 'scaremongering'.

I'm sure there is a drinking game in there somewhere

 

[Soulman]

No it's not: the first line said "could possibly lose" - that's pretty meaningless. It could have said "could possible be forced to have a tattoo on their neck saying 'non EU' and would still not be untrue. I agree though that it's highly unlikely - just as it would be highly unlikely that non-British EU citizens would be asked to leave the UK

And if the vote were to leave, I'd imagine the negotiations on all aspects of the exit would take years, not months

A fair bit of if and buts and scaremongering among the IN campaign. Most get shown up and outed before another wave comes in.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

No it's not: the first line said "could possibly lose" - that's pretty meaningless. It could have said "could possible be forced to have a tattoo on their neck saying 'non EU' and would still not be untrue. I agree though that it's highly unlikely - just as it would be highly unlikely that non-British EU citizens would be asked to leave the UK

And if the vote were to leave, I'd imagine the negotiations on all aspects of the exit would take years, not months

Of course it is even if it's only a suggested outcome. Nothing will happen overnight to EU/Expats in any hypothetical situation because our exit from the EU would not occur until a negotiated settlement has been reached.

I think an initial negotiation leading to exit will take several months possibly with as you say further comprehensive negotiated settlement on all aspects taking years.

 

[5ways]

I find it amusing that all the negative consequences of Brexit I have raised, a recession, moving Europe's financial capital, expats in legal limbo, weaker environmental laws and regulations, the relocation of industry to the continent, weak negotiating positions when renegotiating, a loss of leverage when signing new treaties with third parties, the security implications - moving the border back to Dover from Calais, not to mention no longer having access to Europol, having to follow EU laws and regulations but unable to influence them etc etc etc

These are all what-ifs, maybes, who knows? "We will probably negotiate good deals, and they need us more than we need them! and this is scaremongering, you can't know what will happen..."

Well even if things turned out better than expected I can tell you right now all the benefits we currently receive, the advantages we presently enjoy and the influence we actually possess right now. Brexit requires so many maybes and potentialities that you have to take a gigantic leap into the dark. I prefer the certainty of present reality to a post-Brexit wonderland where we become more prosperous and happy simply because the shackles of bureaucracy have been lifted. Rather than Project Fear I think Project Reality, or Project Certainty is more apt - as opposed to Brexit - Project Close Your Eyes and Hope for a Soft Landing.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Let's get of the EU first
regards
DR

 

[Soulman]

Vote Leave has also signed up MPs from the Conservatives, Labour and Ukip, as well as prominent business people including another former Tory treasurer, the former Dixons chairman Lord Kalms, and former Channel 4 chairman Luke Johnson. Other prominent supporters include author Frederick Forsyth, Green Party peer Baroness (Jenny) Jones, historian Andrew Roberts and Nobel Peace Prize winner Lord Trimble.

Co-chairman of the Labour Leave campaign Kate Hoey said: “We must end the supremacy of EU law over UK law. If we vote to leave, then the £350m we send to Brussels every week can be spent on our priorities like the NHS. I want to see a campaign which brings together those from all parts of the UK who want to take back control of our countries’ laws to the British parliament.”

Other business backers of Vote Leave include entrepreneur John Caudwell, Reebok founder Joe Foster, Michael Freeman of the Argent Group Foyles & Noved chairman Christopher Foyle, Numis Securities CEO Oliver Hemsley, C Hoare & Co managing partner Alexander Hoare and Crispin Odey, the founding partner of Odey Asset Management.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-donors-back-cross-party-campaign-to-leave-eu

 

[Hampster Gull]

Do you think the EU will ever get a clean set of signed off accounts ? What happens to the missing millions?

 

[BigGully]

I find it amusing that all the negative consequences of Brexit I have raised, a recession, moving Europe's financial capital, expats in legal limbo, weaker environmental laws and regulations, the relocation of industry to the continent, weak negotiating positions when renegotiating, a loss of leverage when signing new treaties with third parties, the security implications - moving the border back to Dover from Calais, not to mention no longer having access to Europol, having to follow EU laws and regulations but unable to influence them etc etc etc

These are all what-ifs, maybes, who knows? "We will probably negotiate good deals, and they need us more than we need them! and this is scaremongering, you can't know what will happen..."

Well even if things turned out better than expected I can tell you right now all the benefits we currently receive, the advantages we presently enjoy and the influence we actually possess right now. Brexit requires so many maybes and potentialities that you have to take a gigantic leap into the dark. I prefer the certainty of present reality to a post-Brexit wonderland where we become more prosperous and happy simply because the shackles of bureaucracy have been lifted. Rather than Project Fear I think Project Reality, or Project Certainty is more apt - as opposed to Brexit - Project Close Your Eyes and Hope for a Soft Landing.

Were you a 'join the Euro' serious question ?