Europe: In or Out

[Gwylan]

i read that Tate& Lyle are anti EU because they are about to lift sugar beet quotas while retaining sugar cane imports. so their sugar acne refinement business suffers

Is that sold on a spot market?

 

[alfredmizen]

Is that sold on a spot market?

 

[cunning fergus]

it simply isnt certain that we'd be in a weaker position, we may be in a strong position not having to deal with an agreement that must incorporate the vested interests of 28 other nations. thats why it takes months/years, to hammer out the deals because you have to address the concerns of Spanish olive growers, French cheese makers etc alongside our interests and those of the other party. only yesturday i read that Tate& Lyle are anti EU because they are about to lift sugar beet quotas while retaining sugar cane imports. so their sugar acne refinement business suffers for the sake of other's (French?) sugar beet operations.

Tate and Lyle have laid off hundreds of jobs from their Silvertown refinery as a consequence of EU restrictions on cane sugar.

http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/new...silvertown_fighting_eu_for_survival_1_2006991

The irony of course is that the Germany and subsequently France developed sugar from sugar beet, the French developing the crop on an industrial scale under Napoleon after blockades by the RN prevented them getting sugar from their carribean colonies.

Just like the imposition of metric and aspects of the Code Napoleon which are the basis of EU law, we may as well ask ourselves what was the point of resisting French hegemony in the 1800s.

We were fighting for our independence then.................

 

[5ways]

We already covered this earlier in this thread. I thought the data showed our trade was worse in many cases after all these fabulous EU trade agreements and independent nations had better outcomes.

I'm sure we've gone in circles a few times, and will a few times yet I think I made a response saying that the UK economy was more favoured towards manufacturing previously and has slowly slide towards services which explains the performance issue. Though I'm not an expert so could be wrong. Not sure about other independent states having better outcomes but I've got some CBI factsheets that explain why the Norway/Switzerland model wouldn't work for us !

 

[brighton fella]

The EU - communist? Bloody hell, it's all about the furtherance of self interest and capitalism.

Trade, trade and more trade (plus of course the diminution of sovereign powers to the unelected Brussels bureaucracy). If you think that's got anything to do with communism, by all means join with the right side by voting out, but apart from that.........well, apart from that just vote out!

do behave yourself .. do you know the true meaning of capitalism and communism because to me it sounds like you clearly don't. what we have here under this present EU is a corporate system which benefits only big corporate businesses such as big banks etc etc which by my reckoning is communism at its core , , , communism also denies the people a voice, .hence not a lot different to what is happening right now in the EU where they plan to progress a lot further in giving people no say.. .
true capitalism on the other hand is anything but the helping of big business it gives any business no matter how small the chance and opportunity to prosper.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I'm sure we've gone in circles a few times, and will a few times yet ..........

Sums up this whole thread really, makes you wonder why we even bother!

 

[5ways]

Sums up this whole thread really, makes you wonder why we even bother!

 

[The Rivet]

It's not about who is wright or wrong. It's about debate, education and therefore a solid base for an opinion. On both sides there has been 'fantastic' argument but, in the end the question still remains. Should we have sovereignty over everything or ceed our country to the EU?

 

[alfredmizen]

View attachment 72265

Oh dear, I feel a little bit silly after seeing that

 

[GT49er]

this present EU is a corporate system which benefits only big corporate businesses such as big banks etc etc which by my reckoning is communism at its core , , , .

 

[BadFish]

do behave yourself .. do you know the true meaning of capitalism and communism because to me it sounds like you clearly don't. what we have here under this present EU is a corporate system which benefits only big corporate businesses such as big banks etc etc which by my reckoning is communism at its core , , , communism also denies the people a voice, .hence not a lot different to what is happening right now in the EU where they plan to progress a lot further in giving people no say.. .
true capitalism on the other hand is anything but the helping of big business it gives any business no matter how small the chance and opportunity to prosper.

the trouble is that we don't have true capitalism (we didn't have true communism for long either). The capitalism we currently have very much only benefits corporate business and big banks. Both fail because those in charge fail to represent the people and represent the ruling elite instead. It isn't the system itself that fails it is those that seek to benefit from it that ruin it. Sadly we will always have those people and I am not sure we will find a way to combat them.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Anyone watch QT last night? Apart from Farage why was it so hard for the rest of the panel to admit we have open borders with the EU/ Why can't they face facts and understand we will never be able to control our borders whilst being members of the EU, what is so hard to understand here.

 

[GT49er]

Why can't they face facts and understand we will never be able to control our borders whilst being members of the EU, what is so hard to understand here.

Never easy to defend the undefendable, perhaps?

 

[Soulman]

Anyone watch QT last night? Apart from Farage why was it so hard for the rest of the panel to admit we have open borders with the EU/ Why can't they face facts and understand we will never be able to control our borders whilst being members of the EU, what is so hard to understand here.

I watched it. The audience seemed a bit more evenly balanced, maybe because the show came from Wales.
Noticeable to me that the older members of the audience were worried about the uncontrolled immigration, yet the younger members seemed not to, which is surprising (not really with what they are being fed) as non control will affect their futures.
The leader of Plaid is very passionate about looking after the Welsh people, sadly as England does not have it's own parliament we do not have the same passion/commitment from our MP's.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Anyone watch QT last night? Apart from Farage why was it so hard for the rest of the panel to admit we have open borders with the EU/ Why can't they face facts and understand we will never be able to control our borders whilst being members of the EU, what is so hard to understand here.

Yes I did. The other panel members could not address the question directly as the facts are clear. The only chance we have of reducing net migration is by leaving the EU. Instead of admitting this they talk about how the debate is conducted misrepresenting Farages position in a series of Straw man arguments, predictably dishonest.

 

[melias shoes]

Anyone watch QT last night? Apart from Farage why was it so hard for the rest of the panel to admit we have open borders with the EU/ Why can't they face facts and understand we will never be able to control our borders whilst being members of the EU, what is so hard to understand here.

They just can't face the truth and no matter how hard it's staring them in the face they won't admit it.
Head in sand syndrome.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Soulman, JF and MS, and anyone who can see what's going on, when are other people going to finally wake up.

 

[Gwylan]

Noticeable to me that the older members of the audience were worried about the uncontrolled immigration, yet the younger members seemed not to, which is surprising (not really with what they are being fed) as non control will affect their futures.

That's in line with countless surveys on EU membership. The group that is most firmly opposed is the Over-65s; the group most firmly in support are the Under-30s and in large numbers
. See here for more details
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8112935e-e2ca-11e4-bf4b-00144feab7de.html#axzz3zx7dimQr
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ults-aged-18-to-24-are-firmly-in-9006438.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...now-wants-a-brexit-poll-reveals-a6745561.html

It makes sense to me: young people are the ones who will be looking for work, why would they want to reduce future job prospects?

 

[5ways]

It's not about who is wright or wrong. It's about debate, education and therefore a solid base for an opinion. On both sides there has been 'fantastic' argument but, in the end the question still remains. Should we have sovereignty over everything or ceed our country to the EU?

"Should we have sovereignty over everything or ceed our country to the EU?"


You're starting from a false premise, we are sovereign and we can leave the EU any time we like. The debate is (if i can be so presumptuous) whether we should share sovereignty to achieve better outcomes for common goals - economic, security, and political. And whether the costs of sharing sovereignty outweigh the benefits.

 

[beorhthelm]

You're starting from a false premise, we are sovereign and we can leave the EU any time we like.

really? seem to be overlooking some of the arguments on the pro-EU side, some which you've even made yourself, and complete ignoring the consequences of the current arrangements. we've already ceded much sovereignty to EU, we can no longer pass laws or set rules on a range of subjects because they have to conform to EU laws. classic example is VAT, which our government is not allowed to zero rate or even reduce, except as a temporary measure. cf church repair exemption, digital books and sanitary pads.