EU stay in or get out

[beorhthelm]

out of EU, in to EEC. but if that compromise isnt available all out.

the argument that we need to stay in for trade is insulting our intelligence. we happyily trade with the other 150+ other countries and we managed to trade perfectly well with the europeans before 1973. they need to trade with us just as much as us with them.

 

[CheeseRolls]

This is the part I do not get. Would a company in say France stop buying from a company in the UK, if we pulled out of Europe. If they are trusted buyer for years and still getting a good deal, I doubt they would use this as a reason to stop suddenly trading with the company in the UK, or would it be a financial implication?

Take the Japanese motor assembly bases in the UK. Toyota, Nissan and Honda are here because they have limited quotas of cars they can import directly into the EU block. To exceed these quotas they have to assemble cars within the EU block. I doubt this arrangement could be protected by a reciprocal trade agreement.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I have to ask - you live in a country with better growth than any EU member and yet you think being in the EU would be a good thing ? The Eurozone is f***ed and it was predicted this week that it would remain f***ed for years while Britain's growth would easily outstrip any Eurozone members for years to come ( and no, it wasn't the government that said it ! ).

It always helps to see it both in and out of the EU. Do you have experience of this?
Turkey wants to be in the EU... and there are still people trying to get in while the UK tries to buck the trend.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Rather different for Turkey than it is for the UK though isn't it?

because......? I thought the main raesons why people wanted to get out of the EU was that they were being rules by the EU? How would this be different for Turkey? Certainly Turkey would be one of the largest block voters in the EU (good news for the UK as they would vote with UK against France and Germany) and they would wrap up the cotton trade... but I assume you are not thinking through Turkish eyes. The government really DOESNT want people emigrating to England as it is diluting the national identity.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Please give me two reasons why being part of the EU is good for the UK, because from where I am sitting it just feels like a load of old bullshit.

All I keep hearing is that it will make it more difficult to go abroad. If that's all it is, its a very weak argument for staying in.

Like everyone else I want to remain trading partners, because I don't think that would change even if we where out of it. What I don't want is this country paying billions in to a failing system without finding out what we actually get for our money.

Greece has gone, Spain is in the shit, but they still persist in flushing billions down the toilet. It's not working is it, when are they going to give it up and admit the whole Euro is a complete and utter failure.

I may be being very blind here but I thought the key changes would be...

Foriegn companies closing remainig factories in UK because there would not be the necessary tax breaks anymore
Prices of all goods not produced in the UK (of which there would possibly be less) increasing.... bye bye Lidls and Alldis
Quickly decreasing workforce in areas were UK citizens prefer not to work and possibly increase in costs of production due to need to increase wages to get UK citizens into those jobs... meaning a slowdown in economic grwoth.

Just a couple of ideas...

 

[DIFFBROOK]

Take the Japanese motor assembly bases in the UK. Toyota, Nissan and Honda are here because they have limited quotas of cars they can import directly into the EU block. To exceed these quotas they have to assemble cars within the EU block. I doubt this arrangement could be protected by a reciprocal trade agreement.

This is very true. I'll think you'll find that these companies and others that see the UK as a means into the EU would quickly leave the UK and relocate to Poland or Czech republic. Unemployment would shoot up.

Of course in any club there is gonna be disagreement and things that we dont like, but rather than sulking from the sidelines, why dont we be in the heart of Europe. Building relationships with other countries and shaping things our way.

I actually do believe that if we so wished there could be an Anglo/German relationship at the heart of Europe rather than the current German/Franco one.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Like being in it myself, so 'Stay In' for me.

 

[beorhthelm]

Turkey wants to be in the EU... and there are still people trying to get in while the UK tries to buck the trend.

meanwhile there is also popular resentment of what the EU has become across the rest of the subjugated states. remember the very embaressing No votes for the Euro and then No or delays to the Treaty of Lisbon, which itself was an abandonment of the EU Constitution that several states new they couldnt get ratified? Of course Turkey wants in, they can see all the money that flows in and improves the nation like it did for Portugal, Spain, Greece etc.

 

[Taybha]

Here is something to look forward to in 2014 , how do you say stop eating my bloody goldfish in Bulgarian

UK Immigration Prepares for Influx of Romanian and Bulgarian Immigrants | UK Immigration Barristers

 

[jgmcdee]

I'm all for staying in. Although IMHO we should shoot the CAP as it would not only roughly halve the overall EU budget but also show quite how much money the UK is "giving" to the EU just for it to come right back to our wealthy land-owners.

As for the whole "unelected bureaucrats" stuff I don't see anything here about Brussels that doesn't to my mind apply to Whitehall as well. So is the argument about getting rid of centralised government more than just the EU?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Take the Japanese motor assembly bases in the UK. Toyota, Nissan and Honda are here because they have limited quotas of cars they can import directly into the EU block. To exceed these quotas they have to assemble cars within the EU block. I doubt this arrangement could be protected by a reciprocal trade agreement.

This is very true. I'll think you'll find that these companies and others that see the UK as a means into the EU would quickly leave the UK and relocate to Poland or Czech republic. Unemployment would shoot up.

Of course in any club there is gonna be disagreement and things that we dont like, but rather than sulking from the sidelines, why dont we be in the heart of Europe. Building relationships with other countries and shaping things our way.

I actually do believe that if we so wished there could be an Anglo/German relationship at the heart of Europe rather than the current German/Franco one.

And of course, after being shed of the EU shackles, the UK couldn't give the companies equal or better terms than the EU ? As for access to the EU market, if we traded on the same terms as Norway and Switzerland with the EU then we would be trading as equals with Germany and co. All this we'd never sell anything to the EU and non-EU countries in would stop investing in the UK is scaremongering by the pro-EU lobby. In fact, some companies have said they definitely wouldn't pull out of the UK if we abandoned the EU.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

As for the whole "unelected bureaucrats" stuff I don't see anything here about Brussels that doesn't to my mind apply to Whitehall as well. So is the argument about getting rid of centralised government more than just the EU?

Care to show me your ballot paper to show you voted for the following people ( or their parties or indeed their opposition ) :

President of the European Commission : José Manuel Barroso
President of the European Council : Herman Van Rompuy
President of the European Parliament :Martin Schulz

Or indeed show me a Greek or Italian that voted for their current leaders ( leaders FORCED upon them by the EU after forcing out the elected leaders ) ?

 

[jgmcdee]

Care to show me your ballot paper to show you voted for the following people ( or their parties or indeed their opposition ) :

President of the European Commission : José Manuel Barroso

Elected by the European Parliament, which is made up of MEPs, of whom I voted for (or against).

President of the European Council : Herman Van Rompuy

Elected by the European Council, which includes heads of state of EU member states, which includes our current PM.

President of the European Parliament :Martin Schulz

Elected by the European Parliament, which is made up of MEPs, of whom I voted for (or against).

Or indeed show me a Greek or Italian that voted for their current leaders ( leaders FORCED upon them by the EU after forcing out the elected leaders ) ?

I admit I don't know about the specifics of how these worked but suspect that forced (especially in capitals) might be a little strong. If these countries got themselves in the shit and needed money to bail them out and it came with strings then it's their choice if to accept the strings or not. However I'd pay good money to have a technocratic government ahead of the (mainly) populist cretins that govern (or want to govern) our country.

Although I'm not sure what point you were trying to make; I was just saying that most bureaucracies are unelected so was wondering if this was more of a "down with the unelected" rather than a "down with the EU unelected" thread.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Although I'm not sure what point you were trying to make; I was just saying that most bureaucracies are unelected so was wondering if this was more of a "down with the unelected" rather than a "down with the EU unelected" thread.

You compared EU positions to Whitehall. While we don't directly elect our PM they tend to be an MP ( although despite common theories they don't have to be ) so have been elected. We can, if we wish vote against the government / PM in a general election to try and ensure our preferred potential PM gets in. Try doing that for any of the positions I mentioned in my previous post. Absolutely not possible !!!! The EU gives us no benefit so we should lave.

 

[Brovion]

You compared EU positions to Whitehall. While we don't directly elect our PM they tend to be an MP ( although despite common theories they don't have to be ) so have been elected. We can, if we wish vote against the government / PM in a general election to try and ensure our preferred potential PM gets in. Try doing that for any of the positions I mentioned in my previous post. Absolutely not possible !!!! The EU gives us no benefit so we should lave.

Quite. Also in a British election you vote, ultimately, for a party and they use parliament to introduce and pass the legislation outlined in their manifesto. The European parliament doesn't work like that, there's no European government as such, the Euro parliament only debates bills introduced by the, unelected, Council of Ministers. It is therefore no more than a giant talking shop. A giant, expensive, self-perpetuating talking shop. (Although I have heard some pro-EU people attempt to justify it by saying the ministers are appointed by the national parliaments that we vote for, so in a roundabout way we DO vote for them. It's bollocks of course, that's like saying we vote for life peers in the House of Lords)

 

[jgmcdee]

You compared EU positions to Whitehall. While we don't directly elect our PM they tend to be an MP ( although despite common theories they don't have to be ) so have been elected. We can, if we wish vote against the government / PM in a general election to try and ensure our preferred potential PM gets in. Try doing that for any of the positions I mentioned in my previous post. Absolutely not possible !!!! The EU gives us no benefit so we should lave.

It's just a question of scale.

I am in a very safe Tory seat and my vote has absolutely no ability to influence the outcome one way or the other. Does that mean that I should secede from the UK? Actually, thinking about it...

Anyway, apologies for the lack of clarity but I was referring to Whitehall as the civil service, not the government.

 

[Trufflehound]

I like having the euro as my currency and being able to use it across Europe without the banks nicking everything I own in exchange commissions.

I like being able to live and work in another country without having to apply for endless permits.

I like the fact that we've had the longest spell of peacetime in Western Europe in history, largely thanks to having the French and Germans (and to an extent the UK) shackled together by the EU.

I'm in.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I like the fact that we've had the longest spell of peacetime in Western Europe in history, largely thanks to having the French and Germans (and to an extent the UK) shackled together by the EU.

*** cough *** NATO - nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Trufflehound]

*** cough *** NATO - nothing to do with the EU.

What do that bunch of warmongers have to do with peace? NATO was set up to keep the Warsaw Pact at bay.

I think you'll find political ties rather than military chest-beating generally has better results when it comes to keeping the peace.

 

[Bigbelly]

Out for me. we could then use the money to pay for cancer drugs for British citizens that they ate denied as the drugs are to expensive even thou the sufferers have paid their taxes all their life so instead of their moneygoing on them to prolong their lifes it's instead wasted on corrupt EU Officals etc.