EU and AstraZeneca

[MattBackHome]

It undermines the credit that the Govt deserve for speedy vaccine acquisition when it's chalked up as a Brexit dividend, when it evidently wasn't.

 

[DataPoint]

Name any situation in the future where you expect the EU to move quicker than the UK?

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

There are some that stalk these boards that support modern day slavery , through their advocacy of illegal immigration.
On a side note, the country has now whiffed the coffee, the EU are not our friends, never have been, they want to get their paws on our vaccines...

Can I just say that on an individual level (rather than political level), that is very far from the truth. That is why there was so much concern and lack of understanding about the UK leaving the EU by the people of the continent. The press didn't help by creating a false narrative as to the reasons for leaving. A few EU people I know cut through it and understood and some even agreed. Certainly all the EU people I know, mainly French, German, Swiss, Romanian and Italian really like UK and the Brits. Especially the humour. Whether for leave or remain, I think we should all remember this.

 

[Baker lite]

Can I just say that on an individual level (rather than political level), that is very far from the truth. That is why there was so much concern and lack of understanding about the UK leaving the EU by the people of the continent. The press didn't help by creating a false narrative as to the reasons for leaving. A few EU people I know cut through it and understood and some even agreed. Certainly all the EU people I know, mainly French, German, Swiss, Romanian and Italian really like UK and the Brits. Especially the humour. Whether for leave or remain, I think we should all remember this.

As a collection the EU have never been our friends, individual nations yes.

 

[clapham_gull]

If we weren’t already leaving then I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t have gone alone. Why has no one else gone alone?

Read the news, some countries are looking into it.

We'll never know whether the UK would have gone alone, but it's nether here or there.

We signed the vaccine off under EU law and the spin is we could only do that because of Brexit.

Which is bollocks.

 

[clapham_gull]

From what I’ve read, the EU countries were NOT ALLOWED to deal directly. This has caused a huge outcry in Germany for example. There a numerous articles I’ve read which explain the politics of this, as, for example, they wanted to order enough of another vaccine which was being developed jointly by a French company, which subsequently failed in trials. The French wanted to get their share of the business.

The point is, if we were still in the EU, we would have had to stick to the EU rules.

So, in response to your first post, this is a CLEAR BENEFIT of BREXIT, much to your annoyance I assume.

BTW, there is a lot of anger on the continent about this fiasco from the EU, as it’s potentially going to cost lives and will lead to even more Euro-scepticism across EU states. Its days are numbered - just that many still can’t see it.

Nah. Cos, we were still under EU law when we signed off the vaccine.

Yes the EU have ****ed up, yes the UK appeared to have somewhat lucked out with the manufacturing. Christ, we were due it after the PPE debacle.

But to suggest that the EU would have stopped us is rubbish. That's just spin from the Health Secretary which even No.10 refused to align with.

I know you are DESPERATE for a Brexit Bonus, but this isn't one.

 

[Butch Willykins]

Read the news.

I do most days thanks. It still leads me to believe that if it wasn't for Brexit we’d be part of this EU vaccine shambles. Brexit has saved us here.

 

[clapham_gull]

I do most days thanks. It still leads me to believe that if it wasn't for Brexit we’d be part of this EU vaccine shambles. Brexit has saved us here.

If you want to believe that and it makes you feel better, I'm not going to argue.

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/

The EU decided on a common strategy but there was no provision under the law for us to follow. Whether you believe the UK decided to follow or go alone due to a somewhat difficult relationship with the EU is merely conjecture.

I have no opinion because I prefer facts.

 

[Butch Willykins]

If you want to believe that and it makes you feel better, I'm not going to argue.

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/

And if you honestly want to believe that Brexit played no part in the UK vaccine strategy then crack on sweetheart.

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

If you want to believe that and it makes you feel better, I'm not going to argue.

Point of accuracy - No EU member state was allowed to sign contracts because the EU required each member state to join the EU wide procurement as run by The Commission/EU civil service. Germany (and other member states) wanted to sign a deal around the same time as the UK but didn't do so because it would have undermined the EU. The mistakes of the EU are 1. Being late to order vaccines 2. Not being as quick to give approval (tho thats not a mistake, they could only go as fast as they could) 3 Ordering huge numbers of the French vaccine for what many think was political reasons, rather than spreading their orders across various vaccines (as the UK have done). The French vaccine is likely to be a year late. The problem for my German relatives is they will not be vaccinated for a long time, the economy will suffer and they have nobody to hold accountable in the ballot box.

 

[pb21]

It undermines the credit that the Govt deserve for speedy vaccine acquisition when it's chalked up as a Brexit dividend, when it evidently wasn't.

This

Read the news, some countries are looking into it.

We'll never know whether the UK would have gone alone, but it's nether here or there.

We signed the vaccine off under EU law and the spin is we could only do that because of Brexit.

Which is bollocks.

And this.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Read the news, some countries are looking into it.

We'll never know whether the UK would have gone alone, but it's nether here or there.

We signed the vaccine off under EU law and the spin is we could only do that because of Brexit.

Which is bollocks.

Strawman argument I’m afraid. The issue here is that collective action is not always the answer. It is also that the EU has made bureaucratic and strategic mistakes and still have not licensed the vaccine they are arguing over. Going it alone has worked and it is reasonable to argue this successful template can work in other contexts.

 

[clapham_gull]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55822602

The UK did not take part in the EU vaccine scheme, although it could have done until the end of 2020, while it was still in the Brexit transition period.

At the time, the government said it was opting out because it felt it wouldn't be allowed to continue its own negotiations with potential suppliers and wouldn't have a say on the price, volume and date of possible deliveries.

The UK was the first country in the world to approve the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine (and rolled it out several weeks before the EU).

The UK has also approved the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine and the Moderna vaccine.


You could say the UK government saw all the red tape coming, and made a calculated swerve that has now paid off.
Don't get me wrong, its been an overall shambles, which has directly resulted in tge highest death rate in Europe. But this was one call they got right.

To be fair if the UK Government could see red tape coming the supermarkets would be fully stocked in Northern Ireland.

It's fine to criticise the EU for "bureaucracy" with its 32,000 civil servants, but UK alone employs almost half a million.

Department for Work and Pensions employs 80,790 alone.

 

[clapham_gull]

Strawman argument I’m afraid. The issue here is that collective action is not always the answer. It is also that the EU has made bureaucratic and strategic mistakes and still have not licensed the vaccine they are arguing over. Going it alone has worked and it is reasonable to argue this successful template can work in other contexts.

Don't disagree but let's deal with facts. Going alone has nothing to do with Brexit because it was performed under a provision of the EU law.

As for what I think should happen, countries should be taking more control.

What works in a highly regionalised country like Spain isn't going to work in France.

But that's not the argument being made, is it? Brexit has been a cluster ****, the Pandemic response has been a cluster **** and some people are desperately trying to link the vaccine success with Brexit.

This nonsense dealt with LAST YEAR before the EU **** up when Hancock was slapped down by even his own PM and the approval authorities for trying to push the same argument.

An argument that was lost last year.

 

[Baker lite]

Remember that quote in a few years time when you are working a 50 hour week, have no Sick Pay or Maternity/Paternity Leave and the only benefit you have is cheaper tampons.

Dry yer eyes mate...
We’re out[emoji8]

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

Don't disagree but let's deal with facts. Going alone has nothing to do with Brexit because it was performed under a provision of the EU law.

That just isn't quite correct Clapham Gull. No EU member state was allowed to sign contracts because the EU required each member state to join the EU wide procurement as run by The Commission/EU civil service. Germany (and other member states) wanted to sign a deal around the same time as the UK but didn't do so because it would have undermined the EU. The mistakes of the EU Commission/Civil Service are 1. Being late to order vaccines 2. Not being as quick to give approval (tho thats not a mistake, they could only go as fast as they could) 3 Ordering huge numbers of the French vaccine for what many think was political reasons, rather than spreading their orders across various vaccines (as the UK have done). The French vaccine is likely to be a year late. The problem for my German relatives is they will not be vaccinated for a long time, the economy will suffer and they have nobody to hold accountable in the ballot box.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Don't disagree but let's deal with facts. Going alone has nothing to do with Brexit because it was performed under a provision of the EU law.

Would we have gone alone if we hadn’t been leaving ? Bearing in mind the EU would still have had control over licensing and approval I think it unlikely. The fact is that only Hungary has acted outside the EU vaccination strategy and that is because of their frustration at the process and their closeness to Russia.

 

[clapham_gull]

Would we have gone alone if we hadn’t been leaving ? Bearing in mind the EU would still have had control over licensing and approval I think it unlikely. The fact is that only Hungary has acted outside the EU vaccination strategy and that is because of their frustration at the process and their closeness to Russia.

Again it's irrelevant.

We are now discussing something else now the facts have been pointed out (again).

If we weren't leaving I'd imagine the UK with its vaccine experience would have had a more central role. Or possibly if the UK had gone alone and given the arguments other countries would have followed.

But it's all conjecture.

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

Again it's irrelevant.

We are now discussing something else now the facts have been pointed out (again).

If we weren't leaving I'd imagine the UK with its vaccine experience would have had a more central role. Or possibly if the UK had gone alone and given the arguments other countries would have followed.

But it's all conjecture.

Clapham Gull this is just not correct, see my post. It's what drives me mad about the EU debate on both sides, people just don't concern themselves of the facts then just throw in wild sweeping statements should the facts not fit their side of the fence. Really does make me shake my head.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

To A/Zen and Boris,now is not the time to flinch. Stick to your guns. Please.