EU and AstraZeneca

[clapham_gull]

Clapham Gull this is just not correct, see my post. It's what drives me mad about the EU debate on both sides, people just don't concern themselves of the facts then just throw in wild sweeping statements should the facts not fit their side of the fence. Really does make me shake my head.

I have no side of the fence. There are benefits and disadvantages to leaving AND I HATE BUREAUCRACY whether it's in Whitehall or the EU.

But let's not turn this into a nationalist Brexit success story, I find that hugely distasteful mainly because I've lost a relative to it myself.

Brexit didn't help them.

I'm sorry to hear about your relatives, sincerely I am. I'd prefer the rhetoric to be, let's look as a country to do anything we can to help countries like Germany out.

No-one is safe until everyone is safe.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Anyone genuinely surprised by their attitude?

Taken back control
Regards
DF

 

[Notters]

I have no side of the fence. There are benefits and disadvantages to leaving AND I HATE BUREAUCRACY whether it's in Whitehall or the EU.

But let's not turn this into a nationalist Brexit success story, I find that hugely distasteful mainly because I've lost a relative to it myself.

Brexit didn't help them.

I'm sorry to hear about your relatives, sincerely I am. I'd prefer the rhetoric to be, let's look as a country to do anything we can to help countries like Germany out.

No-one is safe until everyone is safe.

What are the benefits please?

Your last sentence is of course very true.

 

[clapham_gull]

What are the benefits please?

Your last sentence is of course very true.

Working on it.....

 

[Eeyore]

All but one (?) EU member state delegated vaccine procurement to the Commission instead of acting independently because one of the major reasons for being a member is to act collectively because it supposedly gets better results .... not in this case. The EU failed its members, they should take responsibility.

This.

The whole idea of this being a benefit of BREXIT is fanciful.

States could decide for themselves. I think Germany decided to get in side orders.

It's a bit like when the office needs urgent stationary and goes through HO.

Anyway, I'm not keen on the triumphalism from the Airfix patriots here. We're talking lives lost in some parts. We're also talking about the expected greedy international harvesting that means poor countries are missing out.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Again it's irrelevant.

We are now discussing something else now the facts have been pointed out (again).

If we weren't leaving I'd imagine the UK with its vaccine experience would have had a more central role. Or possibly if the UK had gone alone and given the arguments other countries would have followed.

But it's all conjecture.

It is not irrelevant to point out the difference in the WHOLE strategy that not being part of the collective EU strategy has delivered. Various strands to this difference have been pointed out so it is simply not true to claim that ‘facts have been pointed out (again).’ This has nothing to do with nationalism. It is about individual rather than collective bargaining.

 

[drew]

Name any situation in the future where you expect the EU to move quicker than the UK?

Retention of workers rights.

 

[Baker lite]

Retention of workers rights.

Nah...
Nexxxxt.

 

[Easy 10]

To be fair if the UK Government could see red tape coming the supermarkets would be fully stocked in Northern Ireland.

It's fine to criticise the EU for "bureaucracy" with its 32,000 civil servants, but UK alone employs almost half a million.

Department for Work and Pensions employs 80,790 alone.

Its a 'whataboutery' argument though, nothing to do with this. Believe me, I'm no fan of this government. The way they have handled this pandemic has turned a disasaster into a catastrophe, and I hope when a Public Inquiry is eventually held, then heads will roll.

They played this one right though.

 

[clapham_gull]

It is not irrelevant to point out the difference in the WHOLE strategy that not being part of the collective EU strategy has delivered. Various strands to this difference have been pointed out so it is simply not true to claim that ‘facts have been pointed out (again).’ This has nothing to do with nationalism. It is about individual rather than collective bargaining.

But you can't say this would have happened if the UK was still in the EU. Hugely influential member with top vaccine scientists.

Possibly the EU are now really regretting we left.

Sometimes collective bargaining works, sometimes it doesn't. We could have been left at the end of the queue etc..

It's all conjecture what would have happened if we stayed. There is clearly a lot of bollocks on this thread fuelled by DVD copies of Dad's Army. Even the German press have gone nuts.

Money has come from all over the world to finance the Great British "UK" vaccine. I'm clearly reacting to the rhetoric of "their vaccines and ours" and what a success Brexit has been for the Covid response.

Nationalistic nonsense.

 

[nicko31]

This.

The whole idea of this being a benefit of BREXIT is fanciful.

States could decide for themselves. I think Germany decided to get in side orders.

It's a bit like when the office needs urgent stationary and goes through HO.

Anyway, I'm not keen on the triumphalism from the Airfix patriots here. We're talking lives lost in some parts. We're also talking about the expected greedy international harvesting that means poor countries are missing out.

No one is safe until everyone is safe, we need Europe safe as much as us.

 

[clapham_gull]

Its a 'whataboutery' argument though, nothing to do with this. Believe me, I'm no fan of this government. The way they have handled this pandemic has turned a disasaster into a catastrophe, and I hope when a Public Inquiry is eventually held, then heads will roll.

They played this one right though.

You mentioned "red tape". You are better than that. Come on man.

Yes of course they played this right by bypassing their own ridiculous levels of it, unlike pretty everything else they have as you say.

It doesn't mean a lot until all of Europe is fixed too though.

( Just to remind you what a goal looks like by the way )

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

But you can't say this would have happened if the UK was still in the EU. Hugely influential member with top vaccine scientists.

Possibly the EU are now really regretting we left.

Sometimes collective bargaining works, sometimes it doesn't. We could have been left at the end of the queue etc..

It's all conjecture what would have happened if we stayed. There is clearly a lot of bollocks on this thread fuelled by DVD copies of Dad's Army. Even the German press have gone nuts.

Money has come from all over the world to finance the Great British "UK" vaccine. I'm clearly reacting to the rhetoric of "their vaccines and ours" and what a success Brexit has been for the Covid response.

Nationalistic nonsense.

I think perhaps you are not arguing with me but with others on this thread. And I agree that sometimes a collective approach works and at others it doesn’t.

 

[clapham_gull]

I think perhaps you are not arguing with me but with others on this thread

No, I think you are arguing with me when you should be arguing with others on this thread.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

No, I think you are arguing with me when you should be arguing with others on this thread.

let’s agree to agree !!

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Its a 'whataboutery' argument though, nothing to do with this. Believe me, I'm no fan of this government. The way they have handled this pandemic has turned a disasaster into a catastrophe, and I hope when a Public Inquiry is eventually held, then heads will roll.

They played this one right though.

Absolutely this. The vaccine deals were about being underhand, paying more to secure a supply and double crossing your ex partners. Who wouldn't want a Tory in charge of those negotiations? They've played a blinder even if they've cocked up more or less everything else royally.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

This.

The whole idea of this being a benefit of BREXIT is fanciful.

States could decide for themselves. I think Germany decided to get in side orders.

It's a bit like when the office needs urgent stationary and goes through HO.

Anyway, I'm not keen on the triumphalism from the Airfix patriots here. We're talking lives lost in some parts. We're also talking about the expected greedy international harvesting that means poor countries are missing out.

I'm pretty sure had we still been in the EU after a successful Remain campaign all the noise from the pro-EU bods on here and in the press would have been clamouring for the UK government to be good neighbourly Europeans and act in harmony wth nearly all of our EU partners though ...

 

[Easy 10]

You mentioned "red tape". You are better than that. Come on man.

Yes of course they played this right by bypassing their own ridiculous levels of it, unlike pretty everything else they have as you say.

It doesn't mean a lot until all of Europe is fixed too though.

( Just to remind you what a goal looks like by the way )

But if the facts are as being reported, the EU delayed ordering the AZ vaccine x3 months in order to haggle down the price on behalf of all their member states, and to get product liability guarantees. Call it red tape, call it procrastination - whatever you call it, the outcome has been the same. As a direct result, they've now fallen foul of a glitch in the supply and have failed on their promises to the populace. I suspect the EU's front-foot aggressive toys-out-of-the-pram outrage on this is in an effort to deflect the resulting rancour away from their own incompetence, towards a blame-game on the UK and AZ.

As for goals, I'd long given up on those chap.

 

[clapham_gull]

But if the facts are as being reported, the EU delayed ordering the AZ vaccine x3 months in order to haggle down the price on behalf of all their member states, and to get product liability guarantees. Call it red tape, call it procrastination - whatever you call it, the outcome has been the same. As a direct result, they've now fallen foul of a glitch in the supply and have failed on their promises to the populace. I suspect the EU's front-foot aggressive toys-out-of-the-pram outrage on this is in an effort to divert the resulting rancour away from their own incompetence, towards a blame-game on the UK and AZ.

As for goals, I'd long given up on those chap.

I know what's happened, but you can't roll the clock to the referendum and say if we'd voted to stay the same would have happened. For one we would have been right in the middle of with the most practical vaccine fighting our corner.

It somewhat diminishes the clout we had internally. It's like leaving a bunch of ferile teenagers to burn your house down after you'd left home. Rather than thinking about what you could have done about if you had stayed, the argument is phew, I'm glad I left home.

That's really my point. Who knows what would have happened?

 

[yxee]

Absolutely this. The vaccine deals were about being underhand, paying more to secure a supply and double crossing your ex partners. Who wouldn't want a Tory in charge of those negotiations? They've played a blinder even if they've cocked up more or less everything else royally.

I think it's more that we indemnified their risks, didn't we? We took a huge gamble on AZ in particular (hedged by others) and acted very fast. That is what they needed to scale production fast without fear of huge losses