Dutch cabinet approves partial ban on Islamic veil in public areas

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Your logic is so flawed it hurts. Again, so racism no longer exists because black people aren't being lynched? Homophobia doesn't exist because gay people aren't being rounded up and carted off to " straight camps"? Sexism doesn't exist because woman aren't being flogged in the streets for wanting equal pay? These all sound a bit silly don't they? Well that's the kind of logic you're applying to islamaphobia. You're refusing to accept it but then constantly pointing it out by saying that Muslims are trouble makers and that people are getting sick to death of them. I wonder if you're familiar with the concept of irony?

to extend your argument I wonder whether you would be prepared to discuss your peculiar metaphors with some members of, oh I don't know, ISIS?

You see the dichotomy we face. On one hand we have "tolerant" Islam in Britain, by which we mean those not advocating beheading non Muslims but who (empirical evidence maintains) are vehemently against the portrayal of Mohammed in art whether positive or not and who are ( again empirically proven) to be against the marriage of their daughters or sons to non Muslims unless they convert. I have personal friends , one a British doctor raised in a middle class Christian white British family who had to convert to Islam for the man she loved and another Bangladeshi pharmacist who was excommunicated from his family when he chose a white British non Muslim bride rather than the daughter of his dad's friend as expected.

My point is this. British / Muslim integration is doomed if cross cultural intermarriage is so difficult. Other religious migrants have intermingled very successfully, even the Jews where, orthodoxy is on the wane. All groups, that is, except Muslims who insist on region first, integration second whilst simultaneously demanding equal legal standing in every other area of life.

It's a terrible mess because of that refusal to view others of different backgrounds or religions to intermarry with their kids. But, whatever anyone on here shouts about, it's true. Discrimination is a two way street I'm afraid.

Whilst I agree the sample size of two is unscientific but is remarkable in its consistency as both Muslims I mention are from well "integrated" British asian heritage so their experience cannot be artifact given the only other cultural connection is Islam.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

so we can expect Saudi Arabia & Iran to have female leaders any time now

not in your lifetime!

Two countries that of be inclined to agree with you on. BUT your initial point in saying woman have no say withon Islam is still wrong regardless of those two examples.

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

Two countries that of be inclined to agree with you on. BUT your initial point in saying woman have no say withon Islam is still wrong regardless of those two examples.

yes,but your example got blown up

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

to extend your argument I wonder whether you would be prepared to discuss your peculiar metaphors with some members of, oh I don't know, ISIS?

You see the dichotomy we face. On one hand we have "tolerant" Islam in Britain, by which we mean those not advocating beheading non Muslims but who (empirical evidence maintains) are vehemently against the portrayal of Mohammed in art whether positive or not and who are ( again empirically proven) to be against the marriage of their daughters or sons to non Muslims unless they convert. I have personal friends , one a British doctor raised in a middle class Christian white British family who had to convert to Islam for the man she loved and another Bangladeshi pharmacist who was excommunicated from his family when he chose a white British non Muslim bride rather than the daughter of his dad's friend as expected.

My point is this. British / Muslim integration is doomed if cross cultural intermarriage is so difficult. Other religious migrants have intermingled very successfully, even the Jews where, orthodoxy is on the wane. All groups, that is, except Muslims who insist on region first, integration second whilst simultaneously demanding equal legal standing in every other area of life.

It's a terrible mess because of that refusal to view others of different backgrounds or religions to intermarry with their kids. But, whatever anyone on here shouts about, it's true. Discrimination is a two way street I'm afraid.

Whilst I agree the sample size of two is unscientific but is remarkable in its consistency as both Muslims I mention are from well "integrated" British asian heritage so their experience cannot be artifact given the only other cultural connection is Islam.

I see your point. However, I too know a lot of Muslims who live completely different lives to the ones you give as examples. My best friend's father is a Pakistani born muslim who married a white Christian, she didn't convert nor did he ask her to. He wasn't excommunicated. I'm not suggesting this is the norm however I'm just putting a counter forward in regards to your own friend. I also come into contact with muslim men, woman and children on a daily basis who have had no problem integrating. Whilst I do not deny that some probably refuse to intergrate I believe that is the minoroty that choose to do this.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

This thread is full of sad old farts

 

[Soulman]

This thread is full of sad old farts

Not so much of the sad..........

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I see your point. However, I too know a lot of Muslims who live completely different lives to the ones you give as examples. My best friend's father is a Pakistani born muslim who married a white Christian, she didn't convert nor did he ask her to. He wasn't excommunicated. I'm not suggesting this is the norm however I'm just putting a counter forward in regards to your own friend. I also come into contact with muslim men, woman and children on a daily basis who have had no problem integrating. Whilst I do not deny that some probably refuse to intergrate I believe that is the minoroty that choose to do this.

All goes down to peoples experiences. Quite a few experiences in Luton have made me feel the way that I do. You being in Birmingham I should imagine is the same as Luton as regards Muslim population.

 

[GT49er]

Well as I don't know the answer I can't tell you. Goes against your theory though.

Well, as you don't know the answer, it cannot be used for or against any argument, or theory. Simple logic.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Well, as you don't know the answer, it cannot be used for or against any argument, or theory. Simple logic.

On the one hand we have women who aren't able to drive in the other we have women being elected and leading muslim countries. The latter completely disproves the theory that woman are second class citizens within Islam as a genetalisation.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

All goes down to peoples experiences. Quite a few experiences in Luton have made me feel the way that I do. You being in Birmingham I should imagine is the same as Luton as regards Muslim population.

Very true. There is a significant muslim community in Birmingham but I have been very fortunate in many respects with the people of various faiths within my local community.

 

[Husty]

Hooked you Husty but you are the idiot.
These people can go back and live in their mud huts in the desert where they belong.
Then they can carry out their medieval practices to their hearts content.
Fancy joining them Husty.

More intellect in the contents of my nose than in your head mate

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

More intellect in the contents of my nose than in your head mate

Is that really your best comeback

 

[Husty]

Is that really your best comeback

You've not really deserving of better...

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

You've not really deserving of better...

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I see your point. However, I too know a lot of Muslims who live completely different lives to the ones you give as examples. My best friend's father is a Pakistani born muslim who married a white Christian, she didn't convert nor did he ask her to. He wasn't excommunicated. I'm not suggesting this is the norm however I'm just putting a counter forward in regards to your own friend. I also come into contact with muslim men, woman and children on a daily basis who have had no problem integrating. Whilst I do not deny that some probably refuse to intergrate I believe that is the minoroty that choose to do this.

I'd venture a guess that your best friends dad is from the generation before this one when Pakistani migrants were fewer and further between than those of my aquaintance.

My examples are recent migrants to areas where there are far more of "their own" to choose from. Everything being equal I'd say that Muslims prefer to intermarry with those from similar backgrounds than to introduce white British men and women into their extended family. I am related (by association) to a guy who is married to a Pakistani woman who was "divorced" by her Muslim husband and was then ostracised from her family network. She's married to a Brit now who has taken on her two kids but constantly bemoans the immorality of western society and has insisted her kids will not marry English men or women unless literally no one from a Pakistani Muslim heritage wants them. It, frankly, gets right on my tits but her husband is a weak minded bell cheese who idolises this uppity cow. Given her unfortunate treatment by her ex husband I find it very difficult to see what's so great about it myself. But hey ho. Each to their own I guess.

I definitely agree that in the sixties intermarriage was far more prevalent than today. Limited options I suppose...beggars not being choosers and all that.

P.S. the proof of mu particular point can be summarised in one word. Rochdale.

 

[BadFish]

If the Dutch decide to partially ban the Islamic veil then why not ? Too much interference going on everywhere from other countries and organisations i.e. US , EU and some on NSC etc trying to tell a DEMOCRATICALLY elected country how they should run their own lands . If you start to question their decissions you question democracy !!!

If you don't question their decisions you are questioning democracy.

Just because a government is elected it doesn't give them carte blanche to do what they like.

 

[BadFish]

""Face-covering clothing will in future not be accepted in education and healthcare institutions,
government buildings and on public transport," the government said in a statement after the
cabinet approved Interior Minister Ronald Plasterk's bill."

Surely if you turn up with a crash helmet or balaclava on in these places you would have to remove them. Likewise there is no restriction on the streets in either case.
If as you stated "It's not a religious requirement" then removing the face covering should not be a problem.
As for your comment " a source of defiance and religious pride post 9/11 because of the rise of Islamaphobia in the West", don't you think that having the face covered on "public transport" is worrying after 7/7 here and the killings on our public transport.
This "Islamaphobia in the West", so how many Muslims have been killed in the UK because of this "Islamaphobia "?, perhaps posting this one day after Drummer Rigby's birthday is the wrong time.

An opinion!!! you don't even live in Holland

 

[BadFish]

These people can go back and live in their mud huts in the desert where they belong.

Wouldn't it be kind of hard to buld mud huts in the desert? Surely you need water for that?

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

Wouldn't it be kind of hard to buld mud huts in the desert? Surely you need water for that?

 

[Soulman]

An opinion!!! you don't even live in Holland

Err, the post you are replying to states 7/7, and Drummer Rigby, er the West, Islamophobia in the West, balaclavas and crash helmets........all include England actually. In your haste eh.