[Politics] Dominic Cummings v H&SC and S&T select committees *Official Match Thread*

[Machiavelli]

Setting aside the issues for a moment, there is a problem with the logic. You seem to be saying that when DC was involved in stuff with which you disagree then he was lying. Now he is saying something that you agree with, then he is telling the truth. I don’t know who to believe but I find the co-incidence around your stance a little difficult. Not you in particular by the way, yours is the post I happened to have responded to. For my part I am going to believe for definite the parts where Boris condemns himself ie in the WhatsApp messages.

I'm not an advanced logician, but I'm required to know a thing or two about it, and you certainly haven't succeeded in identifying a problem with it, despite your claim.
So, let's go through your statement, to ascertain how effective your logic is.
You state: "You seem to be saying ...". Do you mean that "I seem to be saying" or "I am saying"? If the former, you actually mean that 'Neville's Breakfast has interpreted you as saying' rather than that anyone else thinks this. If the latter, then you need to state it.
It isn't just that I disagreed with what DC was involved in when he drove to Barnard's Castle, it was that he was quite patently lying. This was quite clearly established by multiple attuned observers at the time.
You obviously didn't pay attention to what I did say in the post that you've responded to because, in it, I quite clearly stated that it wasn't an issue of DC's word. It was that DC showed LK a message that BJ had sent to him. That's what's known as corroborating evidence, which goes beyond the word of a participant.
And you state that Boris has condemned himself in a WhatsApp message. I'd be really interested to see that evidence: care to corroborate?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm not an advanced logician, but I'm required to know a thing or two about it, and you certainly haven't succeeded in identifying a problem with it, despite your claim.
So, let's go through your statement, to ascertain how effective your logic is.
You state: "You seem to be saying ...". Do you mean that "I seem to be saying" or "I am saying"? If the former, you actually mean that 'Neville's Breakfast has interpreted you as saying' rather than that anyone else thinks this. If the latter, then you need to state it.
It isn't just that I disagreed with what DC was involved in when he drove to Barnard's Castle, it was that he was quite patently lying. This was quite clearly established by multiple attuned observers at the time.
You obviously didn't pay attention to what I did say in the post that you've responded to because, in it, I quite clearly stated that it wasn't an issue of DC's word. It was that DC showed LK a message that BJ had sent to him. That's what's known as corroborating evidence, which goes beyond the word of a participant.
And you state that Boris has condemned himself in a WhatsApp message. I'd be really interested to see that evidence: care to corroborate?

A screenshot from the Whatsapp, widely available to journalists.

 

[Machiavelli]

Funny so many people hanging on Cummings every word yet only a few months ago he was an irrelevant advisor who should be ignored.

I'd be interested if you could find one post claiming that he was an irrelevant advisor who should be ignored. My claim back then was that he was utterly relevant, he couldn't be ignored, and that he was brilliantly effective at his job.

That's something different from the claim that he was peddling snake oil, and indeed he was (but no longer is).

 

[Machiavelli]

A screenshot from the Whatsapp, widely available to journalists.
View attachment 138818

Yes, thanks for sharing -- that is the message that I was referring to and, as you say, has been doing the rounds.
I do still want to see a message written by Johnson condemning himself, because that really would be news

 

[Lethargic]

So what do you get from this -
1. Boris is a complete idiot who consistently engages his mouth before his brain, well most people know that.
2. Cummings is a vengeful arrogant bellend, most people knew that.
3. Both men generally cannot be trusted to tell the truth or admit to their mistakes, most people knew that.
4. This country would be a better place without both Johnson and Cummings, most people know that.

So nothing new or major, it's all a bit like watch a lover's tiff on Big Brother really.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'm not an advanced logician, but I'm required to know a thing or two about it, and you certainly haven't succeeded in identifying a problem with it, despite your claim.
So, let's go through your statement, to ascertain how effective your logic is.
You state: "You seem to be saying ...". Do you mean that "I seem to be saying" or "I am saying"? If the former, you actually mean that 'Neville's Breakfast has interpreted you as saying' rather than that anyone else thinks this. If the latter, then you need to state it.
It isn't just that I disagreed with what DC was involved in when he drove to Barnard's Castle, it was that he was quite patently lying. This was quite clearly established by multiple attuned observers at the time.
You obviously didn't pay attention to what I did say in the post that you've responded to because, in it, I quite clearly stated that it wasn't an issue of DC's word. It was that DC showed LK a message that BJ had sent to him. That's what's known as corroborating evidence, which goes beyond the word of a participant.
And you state that Boris has condemned himself in a WhatsApp message. I'd be really interested to see that evidence: care to corroborate?

Certainly; when he texts DC to say that he ‘doesn’t buy’ the overwhelming of the NHS.
The rest of your post is a bit uppity so I will leave.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Yes, thanks for sharing -- that is the message that I was referring to and, as you say, has been doing the rounds.
I do still want to see a message written by Johnson condemning himself, because that really would be news

I don't think this is the smoking gun Dom thinks it is. This was before the Kent or Indian variants (insert Greek alphabet letter if preferred) were a thing and whilst cases were rising it was after a summer when things were relativlely normal. All of the Hartley-Brewers of this world were declaring Covid done. Of course, it reads like a post a post from Shiela from Ringmer on Facebook but he was hardly elected due to being a deep thinker in any case.

Nothing there that will come close to bringing him down.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

So what do you get from this -
1. Boris is a complete idiot who consistently engages his mouth before his brain, well most people know that.
2. Cummings is a vengeful arrogant bellend, most people knew that.
3. Both men generally cannot be trusted to tell the truth or admit to their mistakes, most people knew that.
4. This country would be a better place without both Johnson and Cummings, most people know that.

So nothing new or major.

Nothing new maybe. But the country being run by a complete idiot who can't be trusted to tell the truth or admit his mistakes, and the country being a better place without Johnson. I think that is quite major.

 

[The Clamp]

Do I think he lied like a feathered cat to try to placate the public? Yes.
Do I think he’s telling the truth to get rid of Johnson? Yes.

But let’s be clear; a snake like Cummings will tell the truth or he’ll lie depending on what there is to gain or lose. Truth means different things to the likes of him depending on what he needs.

 

[Machiavelli]

I don't think this is the smoking gun Dom thinks it is. This was before the Kent or Indian variants (insert Greek alphabet letter if preferred) were a thing and whilst cases were rising it was after a summer when things were relativlely normal. All of the Hartley-Brewers of this world were declaring Covid done. Of course, it reads like a post a post from Shiela from Ringmer on Facebook but he was hardly elected due to being a deep thinker in any case.

Nothing there that will come close to bringing him down.

I think that Dom thinks he's got multiple smoking guns, but none of them will really stick. I doubt this will be the last thing we hear from him. He's got about a year's worth of material to play with and will drag it out (and further delays to a public inquiry will ensure it receives attention).
I try to ignore Hartley-Brewer, and certainly wouldn't take her to be an expert on Covid (or indeed anything), but that's not to detract from the influence she holds. But in mid-Oct, Johnson had already been informed by Whitty, Vallance, Van Tam, SAGE, etc (these started in Sep) that the second wave was coming and that further restrictions were required in order to prevent a further spike in cases, hospitalisations and deaths. They duly arrived.
Agreed that it won't bring him down, he's got hold of the country's G-spot, and they're still enjoying the ride. Still think they're strong favourites to win the next election.

 

[Machiavelli]

Certainly; when he texts DC to say that he ‘doesn’t buy’ the overwhelming of the NHS.
The rest of your post is a bit uppity so I will leave.

Yes, it was a bit uppity but, without wanting to get too uppity again, he's not condemning himself there. He's merely expressing a view that he doesn't accept the argument made by Whitty, Vallance, Chris Hopson, etc that without restrictions, etc, the NHS would be overwhelmed. It got overwhelmed and, as a result, he had to 'buy' the argument, 'cancel Christmas', and introduce a new lockdown.

 

[BBassic]

Do I think he lied like a feathered cat to try to placate the public? Yes.
Do I think he’s telling the truth to get rid of Johnson? Yes.

But let’s be clear; a snake like Cummings will tell the truth or he’ll lie depending on what there is to gain or lose. Truth means different things to the likes of him depending on what he needs.

He's Littlefinger from Game of Thrones without the sense of style. Or hair.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Yes, it was a bit uppity but, without wanting to get too uppity again, he's not condemning himself there. He's merely expressing a view that he doesn't accept the argument made by Whitty, Vallance, Chris Hopson, etc that without restrictions, etc, the NHS would be overwhelmed. It got overwhelmed and, as a result, he had to 'buy' the argument, 'cancel Christmas', and introduce a new lockdown.

I suppose my interpretation of the text exchange is that it exposes Boris’ instincts as a Covid denier (generic classification of assorted conspiracy theory views that seem to deny the impact of the disease). If not that then he certainly seems overly swayed by the economic arguments, at least compared to me. That’s what I meant anyway, not that he has made any form of apology.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

I think that Dom thinks he's got multiple smoking guns, but none of them will really stick. I doubt this will be the last thing we hear from him. He's got about a year's worth of material to play with and will drag it out (and further delays to a public inquiry will ensure it receives attention).
I try to ignore Hartley-Brewer, and certainly wouldn't take her to be an expert on Covid (or indeed anything), but that's not to detract from the influence she holds. But in mid-Oct, Johnson had already been informed by Whitty, Vallance, Van Tam, SAGE, etc (these started in Sep) that the second wave was coming and that further restrictions were required in order to prevent a further spike in cases, hospitalisations and deaths. They duly arrived.
Agreed that it won't bring him down, he's got hold of the country's G-spot, and they're still enjoying the ride. Still think they're strong favourites to win the next election.

I suppose where I was going with the Hartley-Brewers of this world is that we are the curious position that the majority of opposition to Boris is from within his own party or the comment section of the Telegraph. Labour has always wanted to be more cautious and have more lockdown so the only opposition is really from the Tory right who'd have had us all in the office since last March if they'd had their way. A message published effectively saying "Sod the pensioners" almost stregthens his position with the right of the party and is defendable to the left with "We locked down anyway so its meaningless"

Dom is not half as clever as he thinks he is. Either he advised the PM and he followed it and it all went wrong or he was right but couldn't influence the PM to do the right thing and he wasn't influential enough. Either way, it reflects badly on him.

 

[nicko31]

Do I think he lied like a feathered cat to try to placate the public? Yes.
Do I think he’s telling the truth to get rid of Johnson? Yes.

But let’s be clear; a snake like Cummings will tell the truth or he’ll lie depending on what there is to gain or lose. Truth means different things to the likes of him depending on what he needs.

Good summary, Cummins has nothing to lose now.

You sleep with dogs, you will catch fleas

 

[Machiavelli]

I suppose where I was going with the Hartley-Brewers of this world is that we are the curious position that the majority of opposition to Boris is from within his own party or the comment section of the Telegraph. Labour has always wanted to be more cautious and have more lockdown so the only opposition is really from the Tory right who'd have had us all in the office since last March if they'd had their way. A message published effectively saying "Sod the pensioners" almost stregthens his position with the right of the party and is defendable to the left with "We locked down anyway so its meaningless"

Dom is not half as clever as he thinks he is. Either he advised the PM and he followed it and it all went wrong or he was right but couldn't influence the PM to do the right thing and he wasn't influential enough. Either way, it reflects badly on him.

I actually think he's clever: a brilliant strategist and communicator.
Although you're right on the points that follow. Plus factor in that he'd upset a whole host of people in the inner circle, including one Mrs Johnson.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Cummins doesn't have any reason to lie outright in these interviews, especially if he can be exposed as lying now or at any time later. He has to tell what was going on (albeit with a huge chip on his shoulder and a vast revenge agenda to get Johnson for sacking him), because if his statements are shown not to be true, his credibility has gone for good. He might be twisting the facts to suit his version, but I can't see him telling outright porkies in full public view. Itf he is, it would be easy to trash him, but the government hasn't done that. They have put out various vacuous statements, a bit like the dross they come up with at Prime Minister's Questions, but never actually stated that Cummins has made everything up.

I wouldn't trust either Johnson or Cummins further than I could throw them, but I don't think Cummins would say this stuff unless he can back it up, and/or knows that Johnson can't rubbish it because it is a reasonably accurate version of what took place at the time.

For those who doubt his statements as evidence, what other evidence do you want? This will only ever be "he said this... I said that..." testimony. Unless you were there with a recording device, or have access to the screen shots (and you could argue that even they might be faked).

Ultimately it boils down to personal judgement, and whatever inherent prejudices people have.

Back to the Bear Pit?

 

[clapham_gull]

As absolutely scary and hypocritical as he is, he does talk a lot of sense about the beucracries that run the country.

 

[Randy McNob]

I wonder what the resident Brexiter delusionists think about his comment that those who think Brexit was a good idea must have a screw loose?

He's mugged you right off

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I wonder what the resident Brexiter delusionists think about his comment that those who think Brexit was a good idea must have a screw loose?

He's mugged you right off

[emoji38]ol:

He didn't say that.

He said anyone who was sure Brexit was a good idea must have a screw loose.

Sure means you don't acknowledge you could be wrong. No one without blind faith could take that position.

He's right.