[Politics] Dominic Cummings v H&SC and S&T select committees *Official Match Thread*

[WATFORD zero]

Oh dear, not you two as well. Read the whole quote. He doesn’t think anyone could be certain, whether they be on the Leave or Remain side. He is correct. It applies to most things in life and politics. Anyway, here is the actual quote I posted earlier on the thread;

“I think anyone who says they’re sure about questions like that [Brexit] has got a screw loose, whether you’re on the remain side or our side. I think one of the reasons why we won is precisely, in Vote Leave we didn’t think that we’re definitely right and Remainers are all idiots or traitors or anything else… we never thought like that then and still don’t and I don’t know.’

‘

Yes, but the quote you keep posting wasn't what I was referring to (hence I didn't quote you or it).

I was referring to this “No-one on Earth” knows whether Brexit was a good idea for Britain, the driving force behind the Vote Leave campaign has admitted.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-news-dominic-cummings-b1886994.html

I'm simply pointing out some evidence that suggests it may not. Maybe you could balance it with some benefits that suggest it will be

 

[Mellotron]

Kuenssberg is an utter disgrace - she knew all this 5 years ago but chose not to ask then, only asking now when we all know the answers are blatantly obvious.

She comes out of that interview much worse than Cummings imo. He’s smirking because he knows it.

 

[drew]

Kuenssberg is an utter disgrace - she knew all this 5 years ago but chose not to ask then, only asking now when we all know the answers are blatantly obvious.

She comes out of that interview much worse than Cummings imo. He’s smirking because he knows it.

But 5 years ago, Cummings was inside the team so what answers do you think he or anyone else would have given?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Yes, but the quote you keep posting wasn't what I was referring to.

I was referring to this “No-one on Earth” knows whether Brexit was a good idea for Britain, the driving force behind the Vote Leave campaign has admitted.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-news-dominic-cummings-b1886994.html

I'm simply pointing out some evidence that suggests it may not. Maybe you could balance it with some benefits that suggest it will be

sorry, it just feels like a pointless debate. The decision has been made. We move on.
I was more interested in getting the nuance of what he was saying correct. Of course no-one on earth knows whether any political decision will be a success or failure. True disciples on either side think they know but they don’t. In any case it doesn’t really matter what the campaign people on either side think anyway. They are just there to organize whatever message they were involved with.

 

[WATFORD zero]

sorry, it just feels like a pointless debate. The decision has been made. We move on.
I was more interested in getting the nuance of what he was saying correct. Of course no-one on earth knows whether any political decision will be a success or failure. True disciples on either side think they know but they don’t. In any case it doesn’t really matter what the campaign people on either side think anyway. They are just there to organize whatever message they were involved with.

Debating Brexit is indeed pointless, the decision has been made and we need to move on

And in order to move on, we need to find solutions to the majority of the issues I listed above, and not just keep running away from them

 

[Machiavelli]

I agree with Cummings on a number of things regarding the state of British politics. He has long been critical of particularly the Conservative party of allowing MPs to rise to the top who are frankly useless.

He is also in my opinion completely bat shit mental on a number of other subjects. He is just the sort of person you would want to challenge the orthodoxy, turns things over, upset people (not always bad) , a classic disrupter.

Every organisation needs them (many don't have them) but you need others to challenge their views too. The toxic situation that developed was that this complete firebrand was surrounded by uselessness that was unable to control him, so he ended up effectively controlling them.

Every PM has had them (he's hardly unique), but they are usually just another tool in the toolbox. As we have a PM who is clearly not fit for public office (in any office he has held he has had to employ people to do the thinking), it was always going to end in tears.

This is a great post, and 768 ain't bad either.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

He didn't say that.

He said anyone who was sure Brexit was a good idea must have a screw loose.

Sure means you don't acknowledge you could be wrong. No one without blind faith could take that position.

He's right.

But most peope who voted leave were sure it was a good idea. Brexit is like a national divorce with all the attendant fall out. You don't opt for something like that unless you are sure. It wasn't as if we were at a crossroads. We were in the EU and were whipped up to leave. Apparently by people who thought it might be a good idea but told us it definitely would be, aligning with Farrage. Sunny Uplands. Take back control. Chance of a lifetime.

Not 'we think that on balance leaving the EU may benefit the UK. In the long run. Albeit people may lose their jobs and homes in the short term. We think it is a gamble worth taking in the national interest.

No, I don't recall anything like that

 

[Guinness Boy]

Oh dear, not you two as well. Read the whole quote. He doesn’t think anyone could be certain, whether they be on the Leave or Remain side. He is correct. It applies to most things in life and politics. Anyway, here is the actual quote I posted earlier on the thread;

“I think anyone who says they’re sure about questions like that [Brexit] has got a screw loose, whether you’re on the remain side or our side. I think one of the reasons why we won is precisely, in Vote Leave we didn’t think that we’re definitely right and Remainers are all idiots or traitors or anything else… we never thought like that then and still don’t and I don’t know.’

‘

You can tell when Boris is lying because his lips move.

You can tell when Dom is lying because his lips move.

The delicious thing about all this is that one of them has to be telling the truth and, whoever it is, the Tories still come out looking appalling. And the very worst thing of all is that they knew how stupid and divisive the Brexit referendum would be - and then they did it anyway.

The referendum is over and I accept the result. It's putting the referendum in the manifesto in the first place I still have an issue with, Clearly, internally, a lot of Tories think that too.

I remember many years ago, after the Palace playoff game that saw off Poyet, I was sat in the Bridge car park after the game in [MENTION=1663]Scoffers[/MENTION] car and I remember him asking me if I would get the UK to leave the EU if it was up to me. This was way before the referendum campaign. My honest and immediate, off the cuff answer was "I don't know - I don't understand the full implications".

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

But most peope who voted leave were sure it was a good idea. Brexit is like a national divorce with all the attendant fall out. You don't opt for something like that unless you are sure. It wasn't as if we were at a crossroads. We were in the EU and were whipped up to leave. Apparently by people who thought it might be a good idea but told us it definitely would be, aligning with Farrage. Sunny Uplands. Take back control. Chance of a lifetime.

Not 'we think that on balance leaving the EU may benefit the UK. In the long run. Albeit people may lose their jobs and homes in the short term. We think it is a gamble worth taking in the national interest.

No, I don't recall anything like that

It’s a philosophical debate though isn’t it ? There’s ‘sure’ and ‘sure.’ As a scientist you must encounter this kind of dilemma all the time. I argued strongly in favour of Brexit at the time of the Referendum. That doesn’t mean that I knew the outcome of the decision. Same applies on the Remain side as the EU itself is a constantly evolving entity. Thinking you know is best left to the extremists. The rest of us do what we can in an uncertain world as ‘all other things being equal’ just doesn’t happen in the real world. I am pretty negative about the behaviour of DC in lockdown but he has gone up in my estimation by being willing to describe the limits to his knowledge. Very unusual in politics.

 

[Icy Gull]

I haven’t read the thread so this has probably already mentioned. Any credibility Cummings had went out the window when he said that he decided within days of the election that Boris wasn’t fit. The **** was instrumental in getting Boris appointed in the first place, so how does that work? Did he have a Saul of Tarsus epiphany the day after the election results then? The snake.

He also has a very punchable face and demeanour

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It’s a philosophical debate though isn’t it ? There’s ‘sure’ and ‘sure.’ As a scientist you must encounter this kind of dilemma all the time. I argued strongly in favour of Brexit at the time of the Referendum. That doesn’t mean that I knew the outcome of the decision. Same applies on the Remain side as the EU itself is a constantly evolving entity. Thinking you know is best left to the extremists. The rest of us do what we can in an uncertain world as ‘all other things being equal’ just doesn’t happen in the real world. I am pretty negative about the behaviour of DC in lockdown but he has gone up in my estimation by being willing to describe the limits to his knowledge. Very unusual in politics.

Oh I don't disagree about certainty as a thing. My point really was that we certainly could predict there would be upheaval and short term damage if we left the EU (and at the time there was no plan how to leave or what terms to seek), whereas the upheaval and short term damage of, er, doing nothing and staying in the EU (perhaps engaging a bit more, sending people to sit on committees for a change) was palpably less. To me it really was like triggering a divorce from a perfectly ovely wife because you've heard that there are other women out there wo might be, you know, better, and with no thought for how to divide up the house and make arrangements for the kids.

Of course we can't predict what tomorrow will bring, but opting for disruptive change is something best suited to dealing with crises. I suppose the main difference between you and I would be that you thought that being in the EU was itself a crisis, whereas I didn't.

 

[MJsGhost]

But most peope who voted leave were sure it was a good idea. Brexit is like a national divorce with all the attendant fall out. You don't opt for something like that unless you are sure. It wasn't as if we were at a crossroads. We were in the EU and were whipped up to leave. Apparently by people who thought it might be a good idea but told us it definitely would be, aligning with Farrage. Sunny Uplands. Take back control. Chance of a lifetime.

Not 'we think that on balance leaving the EU may benefit the UK. In the long run. Albeit people may lose their jobs and homes in the short term. We think it is a gamble worth taking in the national interest.

No, I don't recall anything like that

Yup, a lot of people were taken in by the lies/stupidity of those who (given their positions), we should be able to trust:

David Davis (Brexit Secretary): "There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside."

Michael Gove (Pob): "The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want."

There are a few notable exceptions of blowhards who maintain their entrenched position in spite of the evidence in front of them, but the further we get away from the referendum, the less annoyed I am with the leave voters themselves. They have basically been played by a bunch of shysters who have abused their positions of authority to engineer benefits for themselves - whether that's power, money or both.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Oh I don't disagree about certainty as a thing. My point really was that we certainly could predict there would be upheaval and short term damage if we left the EU (and at the time there was no plan how to leave or what terms to seek), whereas the upheaval and short term damage of, er, doing nothing and staying in the EU (perhaps engaging a bit more, sending people to sit on committees for a change) was palpably less. To me it really was like triggering a divorce from a perfectly ovely wife because you've heard that there are other women out there wo might be, you know, better, and with no thought for how to divide up the house and make arrangements for the kids.

Of course we can't predict what tomorrow will bring, but opting for disruptive change is something best suited to dealing with crises. I suppose the main difference between you and I would be that you thought that being in the EU was itself a crisis, whereas I didn't.

That sums it up perfectly and is how two people can passionately debate an issue and yet be able to see it from the other’s perspective. The Brexit debate turned sour because too many were unable to countenance their own uncertainty nor recognize that others may start from a different place. I really think that is the point DC is making although I am beginning to feel like an art critic trying to read too much into a painting !

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You can tell when Boris is lying because his lips move.

You can tell when Dom is lying because his lips move.

The delicious thing about all this is that one of them has to be telling the truth and, whoever it is, the Tories still come out looking appalling. And the very worst thing of all is that they knew how stupid and divisive the Brexit referendum would be - and then they did it anyway.

The referendum is over and I accept the result. It's putting the referendum in the manifesto in the first place I still have an issue with, Clearly, internally, a lot of Tories think that too.

I remember many years ago, after the Palace playoff game that saw off Poyet, I was sat in the Bridge car park after the game in [MENTION=1663]Scoffers[/MENTION] car and I remember him asking me if I would get the UK to leave the EU if it was up to me. This was way before the referendum campaign. My honest and immediate, off the cuff answer was "I don't know - I don't understand the full implications".

I am full of admiration for your pain dulling strategy after that game !

 

[Bodian]

I remember many years ago, after the Palace playoff game that saw off Poyet, I was sat in the Bridge car park after the game in [MENTION=1663]Scoffers[/MENTION] car and I remember him asking me if I would get the UK to leave the EU if it was up to me. This was way before the referendum campaign. My honest and immediate, off the cuff answer was "I don't know - I don't understand the full implications".

How on earth did that topic come up at a time like that?? I don't think I was coherent enough to discuss anything of that nature!

 

[Guinness Boy]

I am full of admiration for your pain dulling strategy after that game !

How on earth did that topic come up at a time like that?? I don't think I was coherent enough to discuss anything of that nature!

Because it was the Bridge after a Palace game - we were sat stationary for over an hour listening to the radio. We picked up that Poyet was probably on his way out and commiserated with each other. I'm not sure but I suspect the question was to change the subject and break the silence.

At the time Poyet was a much more controversial subject than Brexit

Obviously the date and place is also why I remember. I suspect maybe it's been discussed with other friends in pub trips but they all kind of blend into one.

 

[Bry Nylon]

My favourite part of the whole saga thus far is this bit form the BBC news website:

"The situation we found ourselves in is that, within days, we were in a situation where the prime minister's girlfriend is trying to get rid of us and appoint complete clowns to certain key jobs," he says. A Downing Street spokesperson says: "Political appointments are entirely made by the prime minister."

It's reassuring to know that it is the PM that takes sole responsibility for appointing complete clowns to key jobs.

 

[Scoffers]

Because it was the Bridge after a Palace game - we were sat stationary for over an hour listening to the radio. We picked up that Poyet was probably on his way out and commiserated with each other. I'm not sure but I suspect the question was to change the subject and break the silence.

Yup, this!

 

[Hugo Rune]

Dominic Cummings v H&SC and S&T select committees *Official Match Thread*

I haven’t read the thread so this has probably already mentioned. Any credibility Cummings had went out the window when he said that he decided within days of the election that Boris wasn’t fit. The **** was instrumental in getting Boris appointed in the first place, so how does that work? Did he have a Saul of Tarsus epiphany the day after the election results then? The snake.

He also has a very punchable face and demeanour

Cummings is a disrupter though. That is his genius. I’m not sure he thinks through the consequences of his actions, he just does the job in hand. I’d liken him to a genius Army general, perhaps one of the strategists who mastered minded the invasion of Iraq. It is not their job to think about what will happen after the invasion and not even to think why there is an actual invasion, they are there to make the invasion successful.

Cummings is a genius in this respect because he has led the Country into making two decisions through his ‘leave campaign’ and then his ‘Johnson - get Brexit done campaign’. The latter is obviously catastrophic for the Country and whilst the former is still being adjudicated on, it makes sense for him to say that he is not 100% sure it’s a good idea because he made the event happen with a desire to disrupt, not a desire for the best outcome.

 

[Chicken Run]

Cummings is a disrupter though. That is his genius. I’m not sure he thinks through the consequences of his actions, he just does the job in hand. I’d liken him to a genius Army general, perhaps one of the strategists who mastered minded the invasion of Iraq. It is not their job to think about what will happen after the invasion and not even to think why there is an actual invasion, they are there to make the invasion successful.

Cummings is a genius in this respect because he has led the Country into making two decisions through his ‘leave campaign’ and then his ‘Johnson - get Brexit done campaign’. The latter is obviously catastrophic for the Country and whilst the former is still being adjudicated on, it makes sense for him to say that he is not 100% sure it’s a good idea because he made the event happen with a desire to disrupt, not a desire for the best outcome.

I bet you didn’t liken him to a “genius Army General “ during the Barnard Castle debacle [emoji2357]


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