[Politics] Dominic Cummings v H&SC and S&T select committees *Official Match Thread*

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yup, the only way this begins to hurt for the Tories is if someone on the opposition benches (I don't care if it's Labour, SNP, Lib Dems, or Greens) steps forward and can take the live ammunition Cummings is handing over and actually make use of it in a way that will get the general public to re-assess. Cummings is playing a very clever game by waiting until Hancock gave his evidence and then shooting for the low-hanging fruit in providing evidence of untruthfulness, but he's forgotten that he simply cannot win the game in the court of public opinion because he's already lost that war a long time ago.

It's a right shame that there's no one with the magnetic personality that average Jo(e) just loves and trusts by instinct to oppose the Tories. Starmer's a decent leader for Labour if they want to tread water at a higher level than Corbyn (who was struggling to keep head above water in the end), but he's not going to get them back on dry land based on what's happened so far. Even with the Tories apparently quite happy to provide the ammunition that should bring them down.

I agree with all that but match day isn't for another 3 years. General elections are won in the weeks in the run up, and most of all, on the day we vote. Apparently the little bald yorkshireman whose name now escapes me (which is telling) used to duff up Tony Blair at the dispatch box twice weekly, but when it came to general elections it was another matter.

If in 3 years we are in a pickle then labour has a chance. If we are in sunny uplands then Boris will get another term, provided Gove hasn't stabbed him in the back in the meantime.

 

[Audax]

I think you are seriously under-estimating the cult that is Boris Johnson. He had a huge majority and despite everything that he has said and done (and claimed and not done), there isn't any significant movement to question or hold him to account from his followers, at least until things get far worse. And it seems to be completely regardless of who the opposition are or led by

I believe we are already set for decades of struggle as a nation, but it isn't going to stop for a good while yet, whilst he has this 'spell' over his target audience (which let's not forget ironically Cummings played a major role in). I'm afraid that personally, I thought quite a long time back that the best we can do is batten down the hatches, protect what you've got and try and take the position of bemused bystander.

And the bloody auto correct has changed **** to cult

The advantage Boris has at the moment:

1. First Past the Post system.
2. The political right is vast majority voting Tory now.

In a political world where voters are gravitating to either right or left and the centre is left bare, the FPTP system creates a natural heavy advantage to whichever "side" is the most unified. At the moment, that's the right: Thanks to Boris and Brexit, the right is currently fairly universally voting Tory. The left (and centre) is, however, pretty divided: Labour, Green, Lib Dems are all fighting over the same voters and in many seats that's giving the Tories a free pass to victory.

Fine example of that in the Hartlepool by-election that Labour lost. I thought all the "journalism" around that defeat (and belly-aching by Corbynite Labour figures) completely missed the point of what happened in that by-election. Labour lost some votes, sure, but under an Australia-style preferential voting system they would already have lost it at the GE (Labour 37.7%, Tory + Brexit 54.7% - it'll be pretty accurate that the 3rd placed Brexit vote would have flowed close to 100% to the Tory candidate under preferential system - as it did in the by-election). The reason they lost the by-election is because the right went from being heavily split to almost completely unified, while the left got split between Labour and the Independent. In short: Labour never had a hope of winning that by-election once the right unified, and a more democratic (still not perfect, mind!) preferential vote system would have seen them lose that seat with Corbyn still leader.

 

[Weststander]

I think you are seriously under-estimating the cult that is Boris Johnson. He had a huge majority and despite everything that he has said and done (and claimed and not done), there isn't any significant movement to question or hold him to account from his followers, at least until things get far worse. And it seems to be completely regardless of who the opposition are or led by

I believe we are already set for decades of struggle as a nation, but it isn't going to stop for a good while yet, whilst he has this 'spell' over his target audience (which let's not forget ironically Cummings played a major role in). I'm afraid that personally, I thought quite a long time back that the best we can do is batten down the hatches, protect what you've got and try and take the position of bemused bystander.

And the bloody auto correct has changed **** to cult

I don't.

We're a polarised nation, I'm the last remaining person in the middle . NSC is a microcosm of that. Swathesbittery hate all things Tory/Johnson/Brexit/Cameron/Clegg/Rudd/anyone right of Ed Davey. Whilst huge numbers feel the opposite, even if they can't be bothered to join the binfests.

To me there's an opportunity for a charismatic centre-left leader of the Labour with a positive vision and achievable policies.

Things aren't set in stone forever.

 

[Audax]

The advantage Boris has at the moment:

1. First Past the Post system.
2. The political right is vast majority voting Tory now.

In a political world where voters are gravitating to either right or left and the centre is left bare, the FPTP system creates a natural heavy advantage to whichever "side" is the most unified. At the moment, that's the right: Thanks to Boris and Brexit, the right is currently fairly universally voting Tory. The left (and centre) is, however, pretty divided: Labour, Green, Lib Dems are all fighting over the same voters and in many seats that's giving the Tories a free pass to victory.

Fine example of that in the Hartlepool by-election that Labour lost. I thought all the "journalism" around that defeat (and belly-aching by Corbynite Labour figures) completely missed the point of what happened in that by-election. Labour lost some votes, sure, but under an Australia-style preferential voting system they would already have lost it at the GE (Labour 37.7%, Tory + Brexit 54.7% - it'll be pretty accurate that the 3rd placed Brexit vote would have flowed close to 100% to the Tory candidate under preferential system - as it did in the by-election). The reason they lost the by-election is because the right went from being heavily split to almost completely unified, while the left got split between Labour and the Independent. In short: Labour never had a hope of winning that by-election once the right unified, and a more democratic (still not perfect, mind!) preferential vote system would have seen them lose that seat with Corbyn still leader.

And this morning I hear that a by-election has made a fool of me - Tories have lost Chesham and Amersham to the Lib Dems.

Edit: It appears that the Lib Dems have succeeded (in a single seat, at least) at two things: they've unified the left behind their candidate (Greens and Labour got very few votes between them) *and* picked off a decent number of "centre leaning" Tory voters.

 

[pb21]

And this morning I hear that a by-election has made a fool of me - Tories have lost Chesham and Amersham to the Lib Dems.

I hadn't heard anything about this.

Presumably a NIMBY protest vote against HS2 and general planning reforms?

 

[Audax]

I hadn't heard anything about this.

Presumably a NIMBY protest vote against HS2 and general planning reforms?

Haven't read the full article on it, but on my skim read - yes, probably.

 

[Audax]

Haven't read the full article on it, but on my skim read - yes, probably.

Difficult to say for sure from the article in the Guardian. Looks like a range of factors have all played a part:

- Protest vote, probably driven by rejection of the planning reforms / HS2
- Tory's had to run with an all-new candidate (previous candidate has passed away). That always opens the door a little, as it takes away one element of the loyalty factor (new candidate means you only need to crack loyalty to the party, not the candidate).
- Appears the Lib Dems were the only opposition party who took the seat seriously.
- Lib Dems also won the council in the recent local elections, so the signs were there they could push for it.

 

[Chicken Run]

It seems our Dom the beacon of honesty and integrity is in the spotlight again

Dominic Cummings tried to bypass rules over £530k grant, emails suggest https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57531636


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[Hugo Rune]

It seems our Dom the beacon of honesty and integrity is in the spotlight again

Dominic Cummings tried to bypass rules over £530k grant, emails suggest https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57531636

Why is the concept that Cummings is a dodgy **** but was telling the truth about Johnson & Hancock so difficult to grasp? Yes he has little integrity or honesty, just like his Brexit campaign, but he knows full well that some ‘truth bombs’ (backed up with WhatsApp evidence) dropped on his enemies (including Johnson, Hancock & Nut Nut) will have the required effect of making them look bad to anyone with half-a-brain. As others have said, giving this man any sort of role in governing this country tells you everything you need to know about Johnson’s judgement and fitness to be PM.

This argument that if he told a lie about one thing, he can never tell the truth about anything else is typical black or white populism, no shades of grey, it’s one thing or the other. The argument needs to be simple enough for your average Sun reader to comprehend or it’s rejected.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Why is the concept that Cummings is a dodgy **** but was telling the truth about Johnson & Hancock so difficult to grasp? Yes he has little integrity or honesty, just like his Brexit campaign, but he knows full well that some ‘truth bombs’ (backed up with WhatsApp evidence) dropped on his enemies (including Johnson, Hancock & Nut Nut) will have the required effect of making them look bad to anyone with half-a-brain. As others have said, giving this man any sort of role in governing this country tells you everything you need to know about Johnson’s judgement and fitness to be PM.

This argument that if he told a lie about one thing, he can never tell the truth about anything else is typical black or white populism, no shades of grey, it’s one thing or the other. The argument needs to be simple enough for your average Sun reader to comprehend or it’s rejected.

He was a goody, then a baddy, and now a goody again ? I wish you would make your mind up as someone is getting confused

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Why is the concept that Cummings is a dodgy **** but was telling the truth about Johnson & Hancock so difficult to grasp? Yes he has little integrity or honesty, just like his Brexit campaign, but he knows full well that some ‘truth bombs’ (backed up with WhatsApp evidence) dropped on his enemies (including Johnson, Hancock & Nut Nut) will have the required effect of making them look bad to anyone with half-a-brain. As others have said, giving this man any sort of role in governing this country tells you everything you need to know about Johnson’s judgement and fitness to be PM.

This argument that if he told a lie about one thing, he can never tell the truth about anything else is typical black or white populism, no shades of grey, it’s one thing or the other. The argument needs to be simple enough for your average Sun reader to comprehend or it’s rejected.

Nuance.

Some people are too dishonest to acknowledge it or too foolish to recognise it. Same applies to lots of their other posteuring. And when they are called out they step away, into the garden of whataboutery.

 

[Chicken Run]

Why is the concept that Cummings is a dodgy **** but was telling the truth about Johnson & Hancock so difficult to grasp

Well, one might argue that the very fact that someone as intelligent and well informed as you describing Dom as a “dodgy ****” is all that one needs to know about his credibility as a witness?

[emoji1745]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[nicko31]

Cummings back for more tonight, a full hour with Laura K on BBC2

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57854811

I am not sure if we've learn anything new though....

 

[Bozza]

Cummings back for more tonight, a full hour with Laura K on BBC2

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57854811

I am not sure if we've learn anything new though....

The teasers of it on 5Live this morning suggested Dom stopped Boris from killing the Queen.

 

[A1X]

The teasers of it on 5Live this morning suggested Dom stopped Boris from killing the Queen.

Well she is over 80 and I don't think he cares about them very much...

 

[Medwayseagull]

The old phrase " a woman scorned " is being superseded by " a political adviser scorned ".

 

[Uh_huh_him]

I always assumed that DC was the Machiavellian genius behind Boris.

His attempts to get his revenge, show that this was far from the case.
What's his next dastardly scheme, revealing that BJ is untrustworthy?

 

[amexer]

Just amazing was Boris right hand man since the off and stayed with him until sacked with not a murmur. I may have taken him seriously if he had come out with all this after he resigned on principal say a year ago. Just a bitter man that will continue putting the knife in. Will a man who said he drove 30 miles with child in back to test his eye sight ever be believed.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Why is the concept that Cummings is a dodgy **** but was telling the truth about Johnson & Hancock so difficult to grasp? Yes he has little integrity or honesty, just like his Brexit campaign, but he knows full well that some ‘truth bombs’ (backed up with WhatsApp evidence) dropped on his enemies (including Johnson, Hancock & Nut Nut) will have the required effect of making them look bad to anyone with half-a-brain. As others have said, giving this man any sort of role in governing this country tells you everything you need to know about Johnson’s judgement and fitness to be PM.

This argument that if he told a lie about one thing, he can never tell the truth about anything else is typical black or white populism, no shades of grey, it’s one thing or the other. The argument needs to be simple enough for your average Sun reader to comprehend or it’s rejected.

It’s not difficult to grasp. It’s just that people such as yourself who are constantly sticking the boot into the Government are difficult to take seriously when you find another way of doing it. You and others spent years telling us DC is a liar. You really shouldn’t be surprised that people are a little suspicious that you instantly believe him when he too attacks the Government. That said, I’m not sure I would trust DC’s version of events but the WhatsApp messages don’t lie. Shocking really that Boris ‘didn’t buy’ the facts around the NHS being overwhelmed.

 

[Surf's Up]

I suspect Boris has got to tread very carefully here - it wouldn't surprise me if Cummings recorded some if not all of his conversations with BJ in which case he (Boris) would be ill-advised to absolutely deny any of it.