Doesn't look good for the terrorist Mandela

[daveinprague]

Yeah...youre right... the abomination that was apartheid South Africa was all black peoples fault..

So, what has the ANC government done to upset you so much, in comparison to other governments around the world...not just African.....and which governments are unknown to corruption?

Basing your argument on somebody on an MBA course with you is a bit lame.

 

[Carshalton Seagull]

Clearly he is a great statesman, as I posted earlier. It could have so easily become another Rhodesia with the different tribes figting each other, and both brutalising white farmers and their workers, and stealing their land and possessions that they have worked so hard for generations to carve out of a wilderness.

In terms of what he has achieved, can you remind me what the "Rainbow Nation's" reaction was to a miners strike recently?

The man is 94 years old, dying and not responsible for the actions of those now in power. Rather, the actions of some of those now in power provides further evidence for just how great he was. Very few if any of us would have had the courage and wisdom to forgive and work with our oppressors in the way that he did on release from prison and it is thanks entirely to his courage and wisdom that South Africa has not as yet gone the way of Zimbabwe, Zambia or Angola. It still might but that will be in spite of Mandela's efforts rather tha because of them.

I spent several weeks in South Africa and Botswana in 1983. The generosity of the black South Africans and the welcome they gave us was probably the most humbling experience of my life. Their message to us was 'go home and tell the world what you have seen. Tell them that all we are asking for is our freedom. We we want to live in peace as one free people regardless of colour. We do not want revenge, we do not want to kick the white South Africans out, we just want to be free'. For decades most of them had lived in abject poverty in a a society where everything was dictated soley by the colour of someones skin, yet not only did they forgive their oppressors, they also wanted to work with them to create a new and free South Africa. If that makes Mandela a terrorist then so be it. But the world is a better place for his existence and will be poorer for his passing.

 

[soistes]

It is how they behave naturally

Dear oh dear. And I suppose they have "a natural sense of rhythm" too?

 

[pork pie]

Yeah...youre right... the abomination that was apartheid South Africa was all black peoples fault..

Excuse the pun, but the whole this is not that "black and white". My point is that there are still major problems over there that have still to be resolved, and the ANC are not knights in shining armour who have cured their country's social problems. Maybe a little research would help instead of your usual left-wing rhetorc?

 

[pork pie]

Dear oh dear. And I suppose they have "a natural sense of rhythm" too?

What are you on about?

 

[daveinprague]

My 'research' comes from living with a South African family for 20 years.. my partner being the founding chairperson of Brighton Anti Apartheid....

You forgot to mention what the current ANC government has done to upset you so much, in comparison with other newly emerged countries...

 

[soistes]

What are you on about?

racist assumptions about how black Africans behave "naturally"

 

[sydney]

top quality NSC binfest potential here boys.... mandela is definitely a handbrake on the demise of south africa.........he has become a figure-head and openly denounces violence and promotes unity and tolerance.

unfortunately , tribalism and corruption will ensure that africa , as a continent , remains helpless and open to exploitation........this is always a heated subject on here.

 

[pork pie]

The man is 94 years old, dying and not responsible for the actions of those now in power. Rather, the actions of some of those now in power provides further evidence for just how great he was. Very few if any of us would have had the courage and wisdom to forgive and work with our oppressors in the way that he did on release from prison and it is thanks entirely to his courage and wisdom that South Africa has not as yet gone the way of Zimbabwe, Zambia or Angola. It still might but that will be in spite of Mandela's efforts rather tha because of them.

I spent several weeks in South Africa and Botswana in 1983. The generosity of the black South Africans and the welcome they gave us was probably the most humbling experience of my life. Their message to us was 'go home and tell the world what you have seen. Tell them that all we are asking for is our freedom. We we want to live in peace as one free people regardless of colour. We do not want revenge, we do not want to kick the white South Africans out, we just want to be free'. For decades most of them had lived in abject poverty in a a society where everything was dictated soley by the colour of someones skin, yet not only did they forgive their oppressors, they also wanted to work with them to create a new and free South Africa. If that makes Mandela a terrorist then so be it. But the world is a better place for his existence and will be poorer for his passing.

I totally agree with the first part of your post. It is just such a pitty that he has not left his country to people with his vision in run.

 

[pork pie]

racist assumptions about how black Africans behave "naturally"

Oh, the old race card hey? It is simply a statement of behaviour and nothing to do with race. Perhapse you can provide two lists. One of the corrupt African states and one on those that are not. Which is the longest? Do you even have a second list?

 

[pork pie]

My 'research' comes from living with a South African family for 20 years.. my partner being the founding chairperson of Brighton Anti Apartheid....

You forgot to mention what the current ANC government has done to upset you so much, in comparison with other newly emerged countries...

Hahahaha oh, so clearly unbiased?

 

[daveinprague]

Biased?.. I think EVERYBODY should be biased against a racist, dictatorship...you clearly dont...

you forgot again to tell me what the ANC govt has done to upset you.

 

[soistes]

Oh, the old race card hey? It is simply a statement of behaviour and nothing to do with race. Perhapse you can provide two lists. One of the corrupt African states and one on those that are not. Which is the longest? Do you even have a second list?

I don't disagree that there is a problem with corruption in many African states, and there are plenty of competing theories about how such corruption gets established in economically under-developed tribal societies. I was simply challenging your point that this is how Africans "behave naturally". In my view, it's a lazy racist stereotypical assumption, along the lines that Germans behave naturally in an "efficient" manner or that the Irish naturally have the "gift of the gab", or that Jews are naturally mean etc etc

 

[pork pie]

Biased?.. I think EVERYBODY should be biased against a racist, dictatorship...you clearly dont...

you forgot again to tell me what the ANC govt has done to upset you.

The ANC government has done absolutely nothing to upset me personally. Indeed a had a friend who was part of their political arm on my MBA course as well. I just feel it so sad that they have proceeded to act out George Orwell's Animal Farm like all the other people who get control in one-party states. Corruption is even rife in communist China now.

 

[daveinprague]

It happens in all new, and emerging countries though pork pie...surely you have noticed it in other places?.. it will take time...generations...and western nations, have played a role in some areas of Africa to the continents detriiment, but good for western oil, gold, diamond, mineral companies..., to deny that is a bit daft...but theres corruption everywhere...even in the UK.
South Africa isnt a one party state incidentally.

 

[The Large One]

The ANC government has done absolutely nothing to upset me personally. Indeed a had a friend who was part of their political arm on my MBA course as well. I just feel it so sad that they have proceeded to act out George Orwell's Animal Farm like all the other people who get control in one-party states. Corruption is even rife in communist China now.

Corruption has always been rife in China.

But then, corruption is rife in the UK too.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

This is quite an interesting thread, probably because Pork Pie is on my ignore list

 

[sydney]

It happens in all new, and emerging countries though pork pie...surely you have noticed it in other places?.. it will take time...generations...and western nations, have played a role in some areas of Africa to the continents detriiment, but good for western oil, gold, diamond, mineral companies..., to deny that is a bit daft...but theres corruption everywhere...even in the UK.
South Africa isnt a one party state incidentally.

opponents of the ANC are victimised and hounded out of standing for local elections........particularly in the northern provinces and natal.........don't get me started on zanu pf in zimbabwe .......mozambique and zambia are emerging from the chaos of civil wars.....it has taken them around 25-30 years to come good...........south africa's main problem is that it has been the uk of africa for the last 10 years .......the place to be.....millions of illegal immigrants , crime rates that you would not understand or believe........there is no dole in s.a........if you aren't working you have to resort to stealing .......massive problem.

 

[pork pie]

It happens in all new, and emerging countries though pork pie...surely you have noticed it in other places?.. it will take time...generations...and western nations, have played a role in some areas of Africa to the continents detriiment, but good for western oil, gold, diamond, mineral companies..., to deny that is a bit daft...but theres corruption everywhere...even in the UK.
South Africa isnt a one party state incidentally.

Unfortunately, some places never get a far as real democracy do they? Look at Russia, ditched communism, and slipped into the hands of a former KGB leader who has created his own dictatorship.

International trade is international trade, it has been going on since the stone age. It strikes me that you have a general problem with western democracy. Why? Without it they would be even worse off and still living a primative life. Or do you only want to get rid of some bits of western influence?

Semantics. Neither is Russia, and there is as much chance of taking power from Putin as with the ANC.

 

[pork pie]

This is quite an interesting thread, probably because Pork Pie is on my ignore list

That is good. I would not want some tree hugger enjoying my posts too much! lol