Doesn't look good for the terrorist Mandela

[Seagull73]

Yes, I do. If you really think there is still large-scale corruption in this country, even in places like the Construction Industry where it used to be rife, you are even more stupid than you make out. It is at a point where many people are too scared to go to lunch with a supplier, or take a "bottle" at Christmas. Those that will go generally have limits on what they are allowed to accept, and are generally required to register the "gift". The same applies to suppliers as well to protect them.

To compare it with China is simply beyond comprehension. How do you think all of the Chinease students at our universities afford all of their luxuries? Daddy in high up in the party, and on the take.

By your language, I would hazard a guess you work for a multi-national of some sort? In which case, don't fall into the trap of believing that because your company is picking up the fight to stamp out corruption, they all are. Because, frankly, it's simply not true, and corruption at all levels is still more rife that you would ever dare imagine.

 

[The Camel]

What good is representation? Just to give some sort of legitimacy from having some "token whites"? They have no real chance of gaining any power ever again. As has been said, the ANC will not allow any real opposition to exist.

Why should they have "real power" again?

They are a massive minority and own a ridiculously large % of the countries wealth - most of it stolen by the predecessors for the indigenous peoples.

 

[daveinprague]

What good is representation? Just to give some sort of legitimacy from having some "token whites"? They have no real chance of gaining any power ever again. As has been said, the ANC will not allow any real opposition to exist.

You seem a bit more focused on the white population pp... there are many parties in South Africa, represented in parliament...
White population of S.A is less than 10%, of course any white party, representing white people, considering the countries history is not going to have any power again...why the feck should they? They are a tiny party of the population.
....there is plenty of opposition, but im afraid they are mostly black. Sorry.

There is more political representation in SA for various parties than there is in the UK ffs..

Parties represented in Parliament

African Christian Democratic Party (ACDP)
African National Congress (ANC)
African Peoples' Convention (APC)
Azanian People's Organisation (AZAPO)
Congress of the People (COPE)
Democratic Alliance (DA)
Freedom Front + (Vryheidsfront+, FF+)
Minority Front (MF)
Independent Democrats (ID) - as of 2012[update] in the process of merging with the Democratic Alliance
Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP)
Pan Africanist Congress (PAC)
South African Communist Party (SACP) - as part of the ANC-led "Tripartite Alliance" since 1994, the SACP has not contested elections in their own name
United Christian Democratic Party (UCDP)
United Democratic Movement (UDM)

Parties unrepresented in Parliament

Abolition of Income Tax and Usury Party
Africa Muslim Party
African Christian Alliance[1]
African Independent Congress
Afrikaner Volksparty[2]
Agang South Africa
Alliance for Democracy and Prosperity
Alliance for Community Transfomation
Alliance of Free Democrats[3]
Al Jama-ah
A-Party[4]
Boerestaat Party
Black Consciousness Party
Black People's Convention
Cape Party[5]
Cape People's Congress
Christian Democratic Alliance
Christian Democratic Party
Christian Front
Christen Party/Christian Party
Communist Party of South Africa (Marxist-Leninist)
Dabalorivhuwa Patriotic Front
Dagga Party[6]
Democratic Left Front
Democratic Socialist movement (CWI)[7]
Dikwankwetla Party
Economic Freedom Movement
Employment Movement of South Africa
ECOPEACE Party
Federation of Democrats
God's People's Party[8]
Great Kongress of South Africa
Green Party of South Africa (GPSA)
Herstigte Nasionale Party
Hizb ut-Tahrir
Independent African Movement
Izwi Lethu Party
Keep It Straight And Simple Party
Moderate Independent Party
Movement Democratic Party
Nasionale Aksie
National Alliance[9]
National Democratic Convention (NADECO)
National Freedom Party
National Party South Africa (NP)
National People's Party (NPP)[10]
New Labour Party (NLP)
New Vision Party
The Organisation Party
Pan Africanist Movement
Peace and Justice Congress
Pro-death Penalty Party
Royal Loyal Progress
Sindawonye Progressive Party
Socialist Party of Azania
Socialist Green Coalition[11]
South African Democratic Congress (Sadeco)
South African Political Party
United Independent Front
United Party of South Africa
United Front
Universal Party
Women Forward[12]
Workers Organization for Socialist Action
Ximoko Party

 

[The Large One]

By your language, I would hazard a guess you work for a multi-national of some sort? In which case, don't fall into the trap of believing that because your company is picking up the fight to stamp out corruption, they all are. Because, frankly, it's simply not true, and corruption at all levels is still more rife that you would ever dare imagine.

I've given up on him.

He lives in La-La Land at the bottom of the garden, thinking his own sweet thoughts, dreaming of getting owned over and over again.

 

[El Presidente]

Christ, that would be one hell of a hangover! lol

It was my stock answer when I was teaching at Bear Sterns and Lehman Brothers!

 

[Questions]

Definition of Terrorist



What Nelson Mandela done (one of many things)



Nelson Mandela = Terrorist. No ifs or buts about it. You can't say he is a freedom fighter, he is a terrorist. He fits the definition of one. Remember, everybody that commits terrorism is doing it because they feel as though they are fighting for the good cause.

If being convicted of sabotage and conspiracy - and you really need to read up on South Africa's interpretation of that during the 60s and 70s - makes you a terrorist then he is just that. I'm sure the OP will enlighten us as to the intricacies of The Rivonia trials in due time though.
Nelson Mandela amazed me in how to move forward, unembittered at what had gone on before.
In my opinion a great great man. If I was a religious man I would pray for him tonight.

 

[Dandyman]

Nelson Mandela: An ideal for which I am prepared to die | World news | guardian.co.uk


"...This then was the plan. Umkhonto was to perform sabotage, and strict instructions were given to its members right from the start, that on no account were they to injure or kill people in planning or carrying out operations. These instructions have been referred to in the evidence of 'Mr X' and 'Mr Z.'...


During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."

Nelson Mandela 20 April 1964

 

[Gritt23]

I know this is fishing, but I'll bite.

The thing with Mandela, wasn't that he was a terrorist. It was that when he came out of Prison, South Africa could easily have slipped into a civil war. Many of the ANC supporters (and others) wanted war. Mandela, when everybody was expecting violence, came out and encouraged his followers that 'the Rainbow nation' was the way forward. That can't have been easy - especially with a lot of the violent protests of the early 1990s.

For me, that is why Mandela was great. Not because of what he did when he was young (many will argue it was justified, many will argue it was not - I'm not getting into that), but because of what he did after his release from Prison.

The World will be a poorer place the day he passes.

Well put. The only criticism I would have of him since release (pre-incarceration WAS terrorism, and whether it was justified is the only debate IMHO) is that I think he could have done more to influence Mugabe who probably did as much damage to the image of Black majority rule in Southern Africa as Mandela did good. Zimbabwe has been absolutely torn apart under his regime, and you would have though Mandela was powerful and influential enough in that region that he could have intervene in some way.

 

[topbanana36]

If being convicted of sabotage and conspiracy - and you really need to read up on South Africa's interpretation of that during the 60s and 70s - makes you a terrorist then he is just that. I'm sure the OP will enlighten us as to the intricacies of The Rivonia trials in due time though.
Nelson Mandela amazed me in how to move forward, unembittered at what had gone on before.
In my opinion a great great man. If I was a religious man I would pray for him tonight.

I suppose you would like your next door neighbour having this stockpile
a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives—for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explosives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades

One of Mandela's best friends was Muammar Gaddafi WHAT A GREAT MAN

 

[Dandyman]

Well put. The only criticism I would have of him since release (pre-incarceration WAS terrorism, and whether it was justified is the only debate IMHO) is that I think he could have done more to influence Mugabe who probably did as much damage to the image of Black majority rule in Southern Africa as Mandela did good. Zimbabwe has been absolutely torn apart under his regime, and you would have though Mandela was powerful and influential enough in that region that he could have intervene in some way.

It;s perfectly fair to criticise South Africa's elite for failing to deal with Zimbabwe but Mandela ceased to be President in June 1999.

As has already been posted Mandela was NOT convicted of "terrorism" but sabotage and plotting the overthrow of the Apartheid regime. What was being plotted at Rivonia was a campaign aimed at objects not people.

 

[Questions]

Well put. The only criticism I would have of him since release (pre-incarceration WAS terrorism, and whether it was justified is the only debate IMHO) is that I think he could have done more to influence Mugabe who probably did as much damage to the image of Black majority rule in Southern Africa as Mandela did good. Zimbabwe has been absolutely torn apart under his regime, and you would have though Mandela was powerful and influential enough in that region that he could have intervene in some way.

Mugabe had in the early days been such a friend to the Mbeki's and people like Sisulu that most certainly things were not denounced throughout Thabo's term in office. Only later did they try to influence him. A misplaced loyalty without doubt.

 

[Questions]

I suppose you would like your next door neighbour having this stockpile
a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives—for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explosives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades

One of Mandela's best friends was Muammar Gaddafi WHAT A GREAT MAN

You quote a)....... Which is the charge levelled at him by the government of the time whose Education minister justified spending 15 times more on a white child's education than that of a black child because " a black child has a slower thought process than a white child and so we see it as a poor investment"
Oh yes we'll believe these people as to the intent and amounts of stock piling that was going own won't we.

Evidence submitted ? Like the evidence against the violent primary school children of Sharpesville ?

 

[Soulman]

Good post. My limited, but real, contact with the BBC, while probably less extensive than yours, is entirely consistent with this. I think the BBC could be justifiably accused of being middle-class in orientation, and too bound up with what goes on in London and SE England (though they are trying to rectify this, and the recent shift of some activities to Salford will help). But they really don't come over as left-wing to me at all, and I'd be interested to see the evidence which confirms this supposed bias.

Really. Well the ex director general of the BBC, Mark Thompson, admitted the left wing bias himself.
Iv'e tried to give a few links, not the DM, that actually states what the chap said.
BBC chief Mark Thompson admits - News - London Evening Standard

BBC bias is a national disgrace and a global menace - The Commentator

BBC Chief Admits Reports | Republic Report

Forum for former BBC staff - Thompson admits BBC had 'bias to left'

Take your pick....

 

[Questions]

One of Mandela's best friends was Muammar Gaddafi WHAT A GREAT MAN

Tony Blairs friend you mean ?

 

[KZNSeagull]

I repeat, it is not relevant what you call him and what he did prior to going to prison.

He had the chance and every justification in 1993 to start a civil war in South Africa. He choice the route of peace and reconciliation. That is why he is a great man.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Mugabe had in the early days been such a friend to the Mbeki's and people like Sisulu that most certainly things were not denounced throughout Thabo's term in office. Only later did they try to influence him. A misplaced loyalty without doubt.

I'm sure I'm not the only graduate of the School of African & Asian Studies at Sussex University to have been disappointed by Thabo Mbeki's time as President. In my time at Sussex (after Mbeki had left), the place was a haven of South African dissidents in exile and great things were expected of him. He never quite managed to fit Mandela's shoes, though. But maybe that was too much to hope for.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I repeat, it is not relevant what you call him and what he did prior to going to prison.

He had the chance and every justification in 1993 to start a civil war in South Africa. He choice the route of peace and reconciliation. That is why he is a great man.

This sums it up pretty well, as far as I'm concerned.

I won't bother reading the rest of the thread, as it's full of the usual inane Pork Pie ramblings.

You could dismiss the French resistance in WW2 as terrorists (Pork Pie probably does) if you wanted to. Mandela was fighting the most bigoted and unjustifiable regime imaginable.

What he did after leaving prison was magnificent.

 

[topbanana36]

Tony Blairs friend you mean ?

No I actually mean Muammar Gaddafi, who funded the military wing of the ANC, you know the people who kill people for the price of freedom. Just like the IRA. No difference there both justifying murder for what they believe is oppression.

 

[Questions]

I'm sure I'm not the only graduate of the School of African & Asian Studies at Sussex University to have been disappointed by Thabo Mbeki's time as President. In my time at Sussex (after Mbeki had left), the place was a haven of South African dissidents in exile and great things were expected of him. He never quite managed to fit Mandela's shoes, though. But maybe that was too much to hope for.

It's a shame that Mbeki's thoughts on his and then ultimately the African Union solving the problems of Zimbabwe were never realised because their position will forever be undermined by certain western governments because of that.

 

[Questions]

No I actually mean Muammar Gaddafi, who funded the military wing of the ANC, you know the people who kill people for the price of freedom. Just like the IRA. No difference there both justifying murder for what they believe is oppression.

Are you comparing Mandela with Gaddafi or Gaddafi with the IRA ?

Planting bombs in dustbins in a pedestrian precinct in Warrington or other such atrocities committed by the IRA is closer to the atrocities committed by the South African government of Viljoen and Botha than anything Mandela did or was plotting to do.
You need a crash course in state sponsored terrorism outside of Libya if any of your argument is to be taken seriously TB.