Do you think the JOCKS will vote YES ?

[Guy Fawkes]

Pointing me towards my passport as though it proved something.

You do seem to want to be able to say, in some kind of way, that Scotland is not a Country in and of itself. It's understandable why you would have to be able to see it that way, because otherwise you would be arguing against the independence of another country which is not your own, and of course that would make you something of a scoundrel. So it's better if we don't look at it as a country.

But it is though.

My post about the passport was in response to this post by you:

Definition of what?

Are you saying that the United Kingdom is a country, rather than a Union?

I am sure that just like you, in years to come some of our kids will be claiming that Europe is a country and other kids will be arguing with them about how Europe is not a country because the United Kingdom is it's own country.

 

[dingodan]

the real moral hazard is a debt based monetary system which needs growth to stand still. The facts that money is created by banks and they charge interest on it is wrong. The whole QE money printing regime is crap. But that's a separate discussion....

But now it's this discussion

Why have you been arguing that Scotland will regret not having the BoE. I believe it will keep using it, but if they didn't why would it be bad? You have been using the BoE and a benefit that Scotland might lose. I would like to see them go further and abandon the pound and institute sound money Won't happen though.

 

[Joe Gatting's Dad]

The border control issue is not real, I would have thought.

The Channel Islands and Isle of Man are technically "foreign" countries, but there are no border controls. The same could be said for Ireland where no one with a UK passport is usually stopped.

 

[Muhammad - I’m hard - Bruce Lee]

frisps.

I haven't heard that word for 30 years
Frisps

 

[Hamilton]

I think they should. I don't want them to as I don't think it is in either their interests or ours. However, the wound that has been inflicted by nationalists won't go away now, so they may as well get it over and done with.

We are better together and anything that seeks to divide us is poor. It deflects from the real issues. Sadly, for the majority of Scots, post-independence they'll see no change. The same unfairnesses will exist. They'll just have a weaker economy and less wherewithal to do anything about it.

 

[beorhthelm]

Why have you been arguing that Scotland will regret not having the BoE. I believe it will keep using it, but if they didn't why would it be bad? You have been using the BoE and a benefit that Scotland might lose.

they would lose the ability to raise debt and run any financial services. you may have ideological views on that, but the Salmon government doesnt share them, they need to raise an awful lot of debt to maintain the status quo let alone deliver on all the promises. you talk about the moral hazard but its part of national and international finance, Scotland wont avoid it by indepedence. more to the point their financial sector cant ignore this and will have to leave Scotland. accounting for 7%GDP and ~100k jobs, about the same as oil industry, losing half of that would put a massive hole in their budgets.

 

[dingodan]

they would lose the ability to raise debt and run any financial services. you may have ideological views on that, but the Salmon government doesnt share them, they need to raise an awful lot of debt to maintain the status quo let alone deliver on all the promises. you talk about the moral hazard but its part of national and international finance, Scotland wont avoid it by indepedence. more to the point their financial sector cant ignore this and will have to leave Scotland. accounting for 7%GDP and ~100k jobs, about the same as oil industry, losing half of that would put a massive hole in their budgets.

I separated what I would like to see them do and what they will do. I'd like them to ditch it, they won't.

Your horror stories are based on them losing the pound, they won't.

 

[dingodan]

You all sound sh*t scared to me.

Sounds like Scotland is confident enough to go it alone, but we are the insecure friend trying to scare her into staying with our tales of how life will be rotten without us, and how inferior she is and how she'll never make it.

We sound like insecure little b*tches.

 

[The Spanish]

You all sound sh*t scared to me.

Sounds like Scotland is confident enough to go it alone, but we are the insecure friend trying to scare her into staying with our tales of how life will be rotten without us, and how inferior she is and how she'll never make it.

We sound like insecure little b*tches.

I think it's totally understandable that people are concerned about the imminent break up of their country (please don't say again that they are separate, most of understand the intricacies). The insecurity works on both sides of the border.

What is shameful is how the implications for Northern Ireland and Wales are almost totally ignored in the debate. The massive element of nationalism in this whole madcap enterprise is focused on England, rather than the uk. That is poor and shows a lot up over their motivations.

 

[beorhthelm]

Your horror stories are based on them losing the pound, they won't.

do you mean sterlingisation, using the £ informally? then all that applies, no horror story but the opinion of about every economist. you mean monetary union, using £ formally? not going to happen, all political parties have said so and there is no incentive for them to row back on that - and if they did, Scotland wouldnt sign up to the sort of restrictions necessary to make it work politically or economically. they'd have to immediately concede most the independence just gained.

as for being scared, we will be better off without. i just think they are daft and Salmon is leading them to an idealist oblivion.

 

[Soulman]

You all sound sh*t scared to me.

Sounds like Scotland is confident enough to go it alone, but we are the insecure friend trying to scare her into staying with our tales of how life will be rotten without us, and how inferior she is and how she'll never make it.

We sound like insecure little b*tches.

Seems like we are also insecure about leaving the EU as well.

 

[cunning fergus]

The momentum thing is interesting too. You can sense a shift in attitudes, as with all aggressive nationalism it cows the less committed, as it gains momentum.

We are witnessing the death of the uk we grew up with regardless of the result. It's arguable that the English have spectacularly mismanaged their relationship with Scotland, but to unshackle pure nationalism that threatens our nation state was utterly insane, especially since very similar sentiments are suppressed so harshly in England.

In relation to the momentum point I think in any "election" it's easier to convince people with jam tomorrow style arguments than it is with maintenance of the status quo, and that dynamic is even more difficult in this case given the historical scars that Scotland has with decisions made in Westminster.

The no camp have not got a strategy to deal with this aspect of the debate effectively. From what I have seen I cannot see anyone arguing passionately for the value of a British identity? Undoubtedly the no camp won't win everyone over on this basis however given the poll today it appears like they are competing with the Yes camp on how much "independence" Scotland will get, and on that ticket there is only one winner.

Of course, politicians are only reaping what has been sown in recent years with how the British identity has been undermined.........national attributes like diversity and tolerance mean nothing, little wonder the scotch have turned their backs on it to embrace acceptable nationalism; I have yet to see/hear anyone in the yes camp smugly referred to as a little Scotlander.

Also agree with impact on UK whatever happens, and to that extent the die was cast with devolution, amongst other things a no vote will clearly deliver more power for the Scotch, and England/Wales/NI will have to suck that up, whilst having Scotch MPs having votes on matters affecting no Scotch matters. It may take some time but ultimately this situation cannot continue..........constitutional crisis will follow.

 

[Soulman]

In relation to the momentum point I think in any "election" it's easier to convince people with jam tomorrow style arguments than it is with maintenance of the status quo, and that dynamic is even more difficult in this case given the historical scars that Scotland has with decisions made in Westminster.

The no camp have not got a strategy to deal with this aspect of the debate effectively. From what I have seen I cannot see anyone arguing passionately for the value of a British identity? Undoubtedly the no camp won't win everyone over on this basis however given the poll today it appears like they are competing with the Yes camp on how much "independence" Scotland will get, and on that ticket there is only one winner.

Of course, politicians are only reaping what has been sown in recent years with how the British identity has been undermined.........national attributes like diversity and tolerance mean nothing, little wonder the scotch have turned their backs on it to embrace acceptable nationalism; I have yet to see/hear anyone in the yes camp smugly referred to as a little Scotlander.

Also agree with impact on UK whatever happens, and to that extent the die was cast with devolution, amongst other things a no vote will clearly deliver more power for the Scotch, and England/Wales/NI will have to suck that up, whilst having Scotch MPs having votes on matters affecting no Scotch matters. It may take some time but ultimately this situation cannot continue..........constitutional crisis will follow.

Your last two paragraphs are spot on.
TBH a lot of the English voters are a tad thick. For those that DO realise that the MP's of NI, Scotland and Wales can NOT vote on any issues outside their OWN countries, but ALL three can vote on English issues.
So whilst Scottish MP's including the PM (Brown, Cowdenbeath and Kilcaddy) and Chancellor (Darling, Edinburgh West) were voting for the good of Scotland, they were running the UK government........how mad is that.

 

[surrey jim]

Hypothetically if Scotland gained independence and then wanted back in, say 10 years down the line is this possible? On the same note if the no vote wins when would the next referendum be held (ie when is the earliest possible next date?)

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Your last two paragraphs are spot on.
TBH a lot of the English voters are a tad thick. For those that DO realise that the MP's of NI, Scotland and Wales can NOT vote on any issues outside their OWN countries, but ALL three can vote on English issues.
So whilst Scottish MP's including the PM (Brown, Cowdenbeath and Kilcaddy) and Chancellor (Darling, Edinburgh West) were voting for the good of Scotland, they were running the UK government........how mad is that.

Which,my good friend is why Labour lost the last election,not withstanding the financial issues,no Englishman was going to allow a Scot to continue to head Westminster parliament having elected himself.

Madder still that the so called MP's have allowed such a situation to arise,that in an instant takes away their foothold in Westminster...if the outcome is YES. Oh the Irony,voters may be thick but not half as stupid as the MP's and Labour know it......at a stage that may be too late for them,shame.

 

[The Spanish]

I can't imagine many English people avoided voting labour in case we got a Scottish prime minister, in reality. And that is the key difference between us. I may not be the biggest fan of diversity as policy but when you see how this is ethnically driven for some scots, that's scary in this day and age. Yet totally without criticism.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Which,my good friend is why Labour lost the last election,not withstanding the financial issues,no Englishman was going to allow a Scot to continue to head Westminster parliament having elected himself.

Madder still that the so called MP's have allowed such a situation to arise,that in an instant takes away their foothold in Westminster...if the outcome is YES. Oh the Irony,voters may be thick but not half as stupid as the MP's and Labour know it......at a stage that may be too late for them,shame.

I don't follow this.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

I can't imagine many English people avoided voting labour in case we got a Scottish prime minister, in reality.

They did not with Blair,but Brown was different.

 

[fleet]

Does anyone know whether North Sea oil revenue is greater or less than the huge cost of running Scotland? I haven't heard anyone mention this so far.

 

[cunning fergus]

well they have really. the central benefit for Scotland is a single market and currency - thats why they made the union in the first place. unfortunatly the message is being overlooked as Salmon jumps around saying "dont look over there, look over here" and spouting out anything and everything will be better when run from Holyrood. even the parts they already control but havent changed. they will have to build up all the institutions of state at large expense, they will be out of EU (so not all bad...), out of Nato (probably be allowed in, but thats not the point), and without their own currency unless they sacrifice much of their new independence to either the English or the Europeans. its frankly daft situation, but the lure of nationalism is powerful up there.

I agree to a point, however in my view the counter argument to Scottish nationalism has to relate to a credible sense of British identity, after all THAT is what this whole debate is really about. As a concept British identity has unfortunately been undermined over recent years because it has tried to be all things to all people (quite literally). I wouldn't be naive to think Scots haven't always had a strong sense of national identity however for the most part in the last 200 years they also supported the British identity.........it was strong enough to suppress the nationalism we see now. It's not all the Tories fault?

The other technical aspects around currency and economics are the standard cut and thrust, albeit I agree with you overview.

If it is yes, the lawyers will be like pigs in shit on the settlement.........I would love to know how much all that will cost, and who picks up that tab?