Do you think the JOCKS will vote YES ?

[The Spanish]

i'll hapily take that bet.



the pragmatic thing would be to not have a monetry union. with no controls over how Scottish raise or spend funds, we'd be liable to bail them out if they get it all wrong. remember, we are talking exactly the same problem as the Eurozone currently has. the way to make it viable would be to have some sort of federal system of governance, ceding powers back to Westminster, which the newly independent Scotland is not going to accept. its as likly as Scottish parliament agreeing to keep Trident afterall.

You talk a lot of sense mate and perhaps you are right and maybe pragmatism is the wrong term, but if anyone believes after the mind boggling concessions we have already made to this community suddenly they will be suddenly switched off after a yes vote is barking up the wrong forest.

 

[The Spanish]

They do see it as being unrepresentative with only 1 Scottish Tory MP in Westminster (there was none between 1997 and 2001) and a YES vote as a solution to stop being dictated to by any future Tory Government in Westminster.

Be interesting to get the figures for actual votes cast for the Tories in Scotland versus seats won in general elections. That might muddy the democracy argument somewhat.

I have a vote in this by the way, expressing an interest.

 

[Dandyman]

Be interesting to get the figures for actual votes cast for the Tories in Scotland versus seats won in general elections. That might muddy the democracy argument somewhat.

I have a vote in this by the way, expressing an interest.

You are right that FPTP distorts the Tory vote in Scotland. 412,855 people voted for them in 2010 which should equate to about 5 MPs. In 2011 the Additional Member System used for Holyrood returned 15 Tory MSPs (SNP got 69 and Labour 37) in an assembly of 129 seats.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Be interesting to get the figures for actual votes cast for the Tories in Scotland versus seats won in general elections. That might muddy the democracy argument somewhat.

I have a vote in this by the way, expressing an interest.

I don't know the numbers of actual votes cast for the Tories in Scotland since 1997 but these are the overall percentages.
1997 - 17.5% - 0 seats out of 72 Scottish constituencies
2001 - 15.6% - 1 seat out of 72 Scottish constituencies
2005 - 15.8% - 1 seat out of 59 Scottish constituencies
2010 - 16.7% - 1 seat out of 59 Scottish constituencies

 

[The Spanish]

You are right that FPTP distorts the Tory vote in Scotland. 412,855 people voted for them in 2010 which should equate to about 5 MPs. In 2011 the Additional Member System used for Holyrood returned 15 Tory MSPs (SNP got 69 and Labour 37) in an assembly of 129 seats.

Thank you dandy man you are always an oasis of sanity.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

What about a government over 60? Or 250?

The remoteness is heightened by a sense of ethnic otherness, the distance is irrelevant. It shows what a nutty little island this is when we think being governed by a parliament 300 miles away is unfeasible or un representative.

Imagine being governed by a parliament 45 minutes flying distance away.

Imagine having a Scottish unelected prime minister-we did & the rest they say is history.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Thank you dandy man you are always an oasis of sanity.

Very good Spanish..

 

[dangull]

I blame this all on Mel Gibson and the film Braveheart.

 

[The Spanish]

Imagine having a Scottish unelected prime minister-we did & the rest they say is history.

You cannot tell them that though. They still think it's 1979 up here and thatch is closing down the shipyards so everyone down South can wear red braces bray into mobile Phones earn bundles on the markets and carry Filofaxes. As the expression goes they are fighting the last war.

It's a very unsophisticated debate and I stand by my assertion that it's primarily driven by an imaginary perception of the south east of England as materialist US free market focused and selfish. Which is backed by a cultural dislike of the Southern English Middle class. The economic or social justice arguments of the yes campaign are just very very convenient levers.

 

[cunning fergus]

Many Scots will see this as a last minute panic by Westminster. The YES campaign isn't purely about nationalism , the electorate are coming round to the idea that Independence actually means democracy for Scotland. They see this as an opportunity of not being dictated to by a Parliament more than 300 miles away.

If they think that way then they are deluded.

They want to join the EU, so they will still need to use shit lightbulbs and under powered vacuum cleaners just like the rest of us.

If they were so keen on independence they they wouldn't want touch an even more undemocratic union dictating laws which is another 600m away from Westminster.

 

[The Spanish]

Very good Spanish..

I cannot claim that it's a well worn cliche (if well worn isn't already a cliche )

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Does anyone know whether North Sea oil revenue is greater or less than the huge cost of running Scotland? I haven't heard anyone mention this so far.

They have plenty of oil......for the next 20/30 years, after that who pays for their public services will be rather interesting.

 

[ALBION28]

Still can't believe just over 2% of the UK pop could split us apart.

I blame Labour, having Scottish and Welsh Assemblies was unnecessary and what more could come back to bite them, if there is a YES vote when will Labour ever win an election again. Complete fools..

You clearly have no Scottish connections. The independence push is because of the Conservative agenda from 1980 onwards. Poll tax experiment etc note the lack of Conservative mp's . Labour's attempt to pacify the independence movement led to the Asssemblies and now Osbourne is to give more concessions. All too late I fear.

 

[beorhthelm]

You clearly have no Scottish connections. The independence push is because of the Conservative agenda from 1980 onwards.

really? you seem to have overlooked the 1979 referendum and rather trivialised the impact of Labour's devolution, which has empowered the SNP.

 

[cunning fergus]

You clearly have no Scottish connections. The independence push is because of the Conservative agenda from 1980 onwards. Poll tax experiment etc note the lack of Conservative mp's . Labour's attempt to pacify the independence movement led to the Asssemblies and now Osbourne is to give more concessions. All too late I fear.

Don't disagree with your point about the Tories, however despite their woeful record in Scotland there was little appetite for independence in 1997 when Labour swept to power under Blair (or what would have been John Smith).

Labour subsequently introduced devolution not because they had to but they thought by doing so it would spike the guns of any independence movement. They were so conceited in that regard that they never considered any one party could take control of the assembly. How wrong they were.............

The reality is that people voted (and installed) the SNP as the party of power because after 1997 Labour took the Scottish labour vote for granted. Independence for Scotland was not why many people voted SNP, they just couldn't vote for the political establishment, Tory or Labour.

This is exactly like why many people vote UKIP down south.............

 

[TheJasperCo]

It'll be interesting how a 'yes' result will be perceived around the world. Northern Ireland? Catalonia? Even Chechnya and all other states that are looking for independence and complete self-determination. Up til a few days ago I was laughing off this referendum because I didn't think the yes camp stood a chance. Not that I care about the result one way or the other, but it looks like Alisatair Darling and Co. have been similarly complacent.

 

[The Spanish]

You clearly have no Scottish connections. The independence push is because of the Conservative agenda from 1980 onwards. Poll tax experiment etc note the lack of Conservative mp's . Labour's attempt to pacify the independence movement led to the Asssemblies and now Osbourne is to give more concessions. All too late I fear.

I live in Glasgow and I know what's driving this current momentum and it's nothing to do with 80s Tory governments it's pure nationalism.

 

[Muhammad - I’m hard - Bruce Lee]

Can you remember what it stands for though Royal?

F****** repulsive, ignorant Scottish P*****

 

[HOFNSKIN]

Scotland wants a divorce from the Posh Tory Boys?

 

[jakarta]

Scotland wants a divorce from the Posh Tory Boys?

It may well get it but not be very happy with the settlement as Posh Boys often have crafty Lawyers.