Do you think the JOCKS will vote YES ?

[Lord Bracknell]

Quiet true,England never conquered Scotland and the United Kingdom was formed in part because of marriage of an English and a Scottish royal...

Scotland remained an independent country for 100 years after the two Crowns were united.

 

[poidy]

I haven't managed to read through the whole thread but wouldn't an independent Scotland leave the rest of the United Kingdom dangerously exposed from invasion? Particularly as Scotland has no independent Armed Forces to speak of

 

[dingodan]

With the Euro? or something else

They will continue to use Sterling.

When we say, "Oh, but what if we don't let you keep the pound? then what will you do?", we are effectively threatening to cut off our nose to spite our face. We won't follow through, and everybody knows it. All the threat demonstrates is that they cannot actually win the argument on it's merits.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Scotland remained an independent country for 100 years after the two Crowns were united.

Yes correct,but i did state in part,not because of..

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

They will continue to use Sterling.

When we say, "Oh, but what if we don't let you keep the pound? then what will you do?", we are effectively threatening to cut off our nose to spite our face. We won't follow through, and everybody knows it. All the threat demonstrates is that they cannot actually win the argument on it's merits.

So without control of it's own finance one would have to conclude one is not independent?

This make interesting reading http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e635505a-328f-11e4-a5a2-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Cd7NsQsg

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

I haven't managed to read through the whole thread but wouldn't an independent Scotland leave the rest of the United Kingdom dangerously exposed from invasion? Particularly as Scotland has no independent Armed Forces to speak of

Changes nothing really,any invasion coming in from the North can be potentially halted at the narrowing of Hadrian's wall,besides try not to think that any future war will be fought in the way of the last one ended,big mistake.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Still can't believe just over 2% of the UK pop could split us apart.

I blame Labour, having Scottish and Welsh Assemblies was unnecessary and what more could come back to bite them, if there is a YES vote when will Labour ever win an election again. Complete fools..

You blame Labour for Cameron caving into a referendum? It's current weak leadership you need to be pointing your finger at.

 

[dingodan]

So without control of it's own finance one would have to conclude one is not independent?

This make interesting reading http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e635505a-328f-11e4-a5a2-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Cd7NsQsg

"The only problem for Scotland is that if it votes Yes, the existing currency arrangement is no longer on offer. Taxpayers from the rest of the UK (RUK) have no reason to continue supporting the banks and budget deficit of an independent Scotland. All three political parties have made this clear. So the only way for Scotland to have a currency union is to vote No to independence."

That is a political article, and you will be hard pressed to find any article which which is not at this stage in the process.

You are correct that being in a currency Union will not allow Scotland to be monetarily independent. But this has been all about legislative independence.

 

[Vegas Seagull]

Still can't believe just over 2% of the UK pop could split us apart.

I blame Labour, having Scottish and Welsh Assemblies was unnecessary and what more could come back to bite them, if there is a YES vote when will Labour ever win an election again. Complete fools..

Maths graduate you are not

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

That is a political article, and you will be hard pressed to find any article which which is not at this stage in the process.

You are correct that being in a currency Union will not allow Scotland to be monetarily independent. But this has been all about legislative independence.

I think you are right,and perhaps Scotland does wish to be able to set it's own Laws,that can vary greatly to those of England,i wonder if not having financial independence can allow the Scot's to be fully independent even at a legislative level..

I am not trying to say i am right or wrong,but it seems to me that the finance or lack of control over it,is/will be the major problem to overcome.

 

[larus]

Will we let them have it? If we do let them keep it,they will NEVER be independent....

There's a huge difference between using a currency, and controlling that currency. They can use whatever currency they want, but the "lender of last resort" is the BoE. They set interest rate, they have the power to bail out banks etc..
So, is they use sterling but without a currency union, then they have no lender of last resort. Their financial institution won't be backed by anyone. Therefore, borrowing for these banks will be riskier and therefore more expensive.
if there is a currency union, they will have to submit their budget for approval by Westminster, which surely defeats the sim of independence.

Next, they won't be a member if the EU. Therefore, I assume we will have to have border controls between England/Scotland. If not, then visitors to Scotland would have free access to the whole if the EU. I haven't heard anything about this, and this is purely my assumption.

Another hole in Salmonds theory is membership of the EU. Lots of leading figures within the EU have stated that they will need to apply for membership, and several nations which have similar independence issues, e.g. Spain, will block their application. Also, new members must adopt the Euro as this is a precondition of entry to the EU now. And, you need to have your own currency/central bank to enter the EU/euro.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Maths graduate you are not

Hello Vegas....i know you are a financial guru of sorts,what do you make of the proposed idea by the Scot's to be independent and how do you see the currency issue?

 

[dingodan]

I think you are right,and perhaps Scotland does wish to be able to set it's own Laws,that can vary greatly to those of England,i wonder if not having financial independence can allow the Scot's to be fully independent even at a legislative level..

I am not trying to say i am right or wrong,but it seems to me that the finance or lack of control over it,is/will be the major problem to overcome.

If you said to Scotland, "This isn't legit independence", I'm pretty sure they would take it anyway. Legislative power is what they want, it's the hallmark of self determination.

The financial thing is interesting, we could say that even though Scotland has control over fiscal policy, monetary policy can be an indirect determinant of fiscal policy. In effect they will be taking fiscal control without ever having monetary control. Although, if you think that sounds whack, you should bare in mind that this is not going to be peculiar to Scotland, because the Bank of England "independently" sets monetary policy, our current government have no control over our monetary policy either.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

If you said to Scotland, "This isn't legit independence", I'm pretty sure they would take it anyway. Legislative power is what they want, it's the hallmark of self determination.

The financial thing is interesting, we could say that even though Scotland has control over fiscal policy, monetary policy can be an indirect determinant of fiscal policy. In effect they will be taking fiscal control without ever having monetary control. Although, if you think that sounds whack, you should bare in mind that this is not going to be peculiar to Scotland, because the Bank of England "independently" sets monetary policy, our current government have no control over our monetary policy either.

Ironic that a Scot gave the power to the Bank of England to do such a thing..

 

[larus]

The financial thing is interesting, we could say that even though Scotland has control over fiscal policy, monetary policy can be an indirect determinant of fiscal policy. In effect they will be taking fiscal control without ever having monetary control. Although, if you think that sounds whack, you should bare in mind that this is not going to be peculiar to Scotland, because the Bank of England "independently" sets monetary policy, our current government have no control over our monetary policy either.

But the BoE sets monetary policy for the uk. No one will be setting monetary policy for Scotland if they go.
Also, who is their lender of last resort? That's right, they won't have one.

 

[dingodan]

There's a huge difference between using a currency, and controlling that currency. They can use whatever currency they want, but the "lender of last resort" is the BoE. They set interest rate, they have the power to bail out banks etc..
So, is they use sterling but without a currency union, then they have no lender of last resort. Their financial institution won't be backed by anyone. Therefore, borrowing for these banks will be riskier and therefore more expensive.
if there is a currency union, they will have to submit their budget for approval by Westminster, which surely defeats the sim of independence.

You think that the Central Bank, the "lender of last resort", is some kind of stabilizing, safety providing institution. It's not.

It is the origin or the moral hazard which has ruined western economies.

If only Scotland could divorce itself from the BoE, if only we could too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

 

[beorhthelm]

You are correct that being in a currency Union will not allow Scotland to be monetarily independent. But this has been all about legislative independence.

it certainly is not, thats not an arguement that Salmon or anyone in the Yes campaign is making, though they might do very well to do so. they have campaigned on the basis of taking control of all legislation and fiscal policy from Westminister, with the only concessions on £ as currency (subjecting them to BoE control) and the Queen as formal head of state. they constantly berate that they're inability to change budgets restricts what they can do for the Scottish people. they cite the oil industry as being able to underpin every budget shortful from losing finance subsidy from England post independence.

post independence we have stated they wont get to use the £ formally, so they'll have no recognised currency. they wont be able to borrow properly as a nation, at best be treated like a large corporations bonds with associated higher costs and, ironically, subject to English law for any funds raised here. they'll have to cover an imediate shortfall in budgets across all public sector as existing expenditure is cut off, while investing hundreds of millions in establishing new offices of state. everything about independence boils down to how to pay for what you want, and a socialist Scotland want an awful lot.

 

[dingodan]

But the BoE sets monetary policy for the uk. No one will be setting monetary policy for Scotland if they go.
Also, who is their lender of last resort? That's right, they won't have one.

They will have the pound and the BoE interest rate.

What I am saying is that in reality, that's not exactly the benefit it's cracked up to be.

 

[dingodan]

it certainly is not, thats not an arguement that Salmon or anyone in the Yes campaign is making, though they might do very well to do so. they have campaigned on the basis of taking control of all legislation and fiscal policy from Westminister, with the only concessions on £ as currency (subjecting them to BoE control) and the Queen as formal head of state. they constantly berate that they're inability to change budgets restricts what they can do for the Scottish people. they cite the oil industry as being able to underpin every budget shortful from losing finance subsidy from England post independence.

post independence we have stated they wont get to use the £ formally, so they'll have no recognised currency. they wont be able to borrow properly as a nation, at best be treated like a large corporations bonds with associated higher costs and, ironically, subject to English law for any funds raised here. they'll have to cover an imediate shortfall in budgets across all public sector as existing expenditure is cut off, while investing hundreds of millions in establishing new offices of state. everything about independence boils down to how to pay for what you want, and a socialist Scotland want an awful lot.

Yes, they will be taking legislative and fiscal policy control. Just not monetary policy control. (fiscal policy is effectively legislative).

 

[larus]

You think that the Central Bank, the "lender of last resort", is some kind of stabilizing, safety providing institution. It's not.

It is the origin or the moral hazard which has ruined western economies.

If only Scotland could divorce itself from the BoE, if only we could too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

the real moral hazard is a debt based monetary system which needs growth to stand still. The facts that money is created by banks and they charge interest on it is wrong. The whole QE money printing regime is crap. But that's a separate discussion....