Devolution Referendum

[Beach Hut]

Isn't this more about North Sea oil revenue

 

[rouseytastic]

I wonder how they will cope with actually paying for their prescriptions when the nasty English people aren't around to subsidise it all!

 

[Pavilionaire]

Two years of a gradual decline in relations between England and Scotland has started today, and I think that's sad. This could turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy where the short-term bitching on both sides leads to just enough Scots voting YES in 2014.

For me I think it'll be a NO result, but if it is a YES then I'd be up for an English Parliament.

 

[cunning fergus]

funny thing is, they want to keep the monarch and the £, so its not really complete indepedence.[/QUOTE]



This is actually the point in a nutshell. If you want independence surely you want out of a union (whether political or economic) because within it your Govt cannot act freely. Even if the scots vote for independence they will still be in an economic union with the rest of the UK, because they will retain sterling. Sure, they will have more freedom to raise taxes and where to spend them but when interest rates are being set in London (to manage the political objectives of its own Govt) it's not going to deliver genuine independence.

If they subsequently decide to opt for the euro (which is unlikely) then they will have to integrate into the euro zone which means (drum roll) political union. So they jump straight from one union to another. In fact going forward the eurozone will be even more restrictive on member states tax and spend policies.......dominated by you know who. They would have to have a referendum to join, that would be fun to watch........the anti UK unionists suddenly becoming pro European unionists.

So for clear unambiguous independence that leaves the creation of a scots pound which the SNP have already ruled out.

That's it.......if the scots understand this everything else is window dressing, from the queen to trident to border guards and even the oil.

Fact is that if the scots really want independence they are having a referendum on the wrong union.......still at least they got one.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

As someone with Scottish ancestors, I might consider taking out Scottish citizenship. Will we be able to hold two passports?

 

[Brovion]

What about Northern Ireland? The LAST thing I want to see is some rump UK of us, Wales and Northern Ireland - especially as that's been the place that's caused us the most trouble over the years. Can't Salmond take it with him?

As others have said no one's thought of asking the English what we think. Judging by comments on here and in other places there is a groundswell of opinion that wants to see English independence and for us to be free of whining Celts once and for all. (Well as 'free' as the Republic of Ireland is from Britain given that we're both basically just glorified regions in the EU).

 

[BadFish]

Just what we all need more division in the world, more tribalism, more nationalism, more reason to argue and name call over pathetic stereotypes.

My guess would be that most people in the UK would be mildly apathetic about this idea and it is only a few with some kind of vested interested blowing the horn and stirring up shit.

Just another opportunity for the nasty little Englanders to pipe up and have ago at the enemy over the border. When this is done we can all concentrate more fully on the Northern monkeys.

 

[Brovion]

Just what we all need more division in the world, more tribalism, more nationalism, more reason to argue and name call over pathetic stereotypes.

My guess would be that most people in the UK would be mildly apathetic about this idea and it is only a few with some kind of vested interested blowing the horn and stirring up shit.

Just another opportunity for the nasty little Englanders to pipe up and have ago at the enemy over the border. When this is done we can all concentrate more fully on the Northern monkeys.

I must admit I've been surprised at some of the venom, but on the other hand we, the modern English, have had to put with YEARS of abuse from the Scots (and the Irish) about how horrible the English were, are and always will be. By and large we've thought of the potato famine and the Highland Clearances and have kept our mouths shut. But no longer it seems.

Fifteen or twenty years ago I'd have agreed with every word you said. I hated all nationalisms; Scottish, Irish, British, and I found it both amusing and exasperating that people could say they supported Irish nationalism (for example) but thought British nationalism was for prejudiced bigots. And vice-versa of course. Now I just want what's best for England and the English people - which isn't the same as saying I'm in favour of total English independence.

 

[00snook]

Really not sure how I feel about this whole thing.

My natural instinct is that we are stronger as a union, and should keep it that way. I love Scotland, have worked extensively in both Edinburgh and on the West Coast and have found the people very friendly and not at all anti-English.

That being said there does seem to be a huge movement in Scotland favouring independence. The sad fact for me is that I am not entirely sure that most Scottish people understand the ramifications of independence. Also if they keep the £ then surely their economy is tied to the rest of GB, meaning that they are not an independent nation?

A very small part of me would like to see the shouting minority of Scottish people get the independence they want, and then see how their country does. In truth though, I think the British Isles should stay joined as a Union. Breaking up countries and setting divides between nations is not the way forward.

Plus without the Scottish Labour vote, we would be locked into a permanent Conservative government in England. Depending on your political leaning this is either great, or disastrous news. Without the Scottish vote in the last election the Conservatives would have had a majority, and the coalition wouldn't exist, and we all know what a good job they are doing

 

[BadFish]

I must admit I've been surprised at some of the venom, but on the other hand we, the modern English, have had to put with YEARS of abuse from the Scots (and the Irish) about how horrible the English were, are and always will be. By and large we've thought of the potato famine and the Highland Clearances and have kept our mouths shut. But no longer it seems.

Fifteen or twenty years ago I'd have agreed with every word you said. I hated all nationalisms; Scottish, Irish, British, and I found it both amusing and exasperating that people could say they supported Irish nationalism (for example) but thought British nationalism was for prejudiced bigots. And vice-versa of course. Now I just want what's best for England and the English people - which isn't the same as saying I'm in favour of total English independence.

I am to far away to really know, but is it really going to make much difference to your average Englishman? Apart from making it easier for the Tories to get into Westminster which I would argue is a terrible thing for everyone (to be fair it would only be a bit more terrible than a Labour government. Hobson's choice and all)

All I am really reading on this thread is "hooray, we can get rid of the sweaties"

May I ask what has changed your mind about nationalism? (pm me if you like to avoid the binfest)

 

[BadFish]

Really not sure how I feel about this whole thing.

My natural instinct is that we are stronger as a union, and should keep it that way. I love Scotland, have worked extensively in both Edinburgh and on the West Coast and have found the people very friendly and not at all anti-English.

That being said there does seem to be a huge movement in Scotland favouring independence. The sad fact for me is that I am not entirely sure that most Scottish people understand the ramifications of independence. Also if they keep the £ then surely their economy is tied to the rest of GB, meaning that they are not an independent nation?

A very small part of me would like to see the shouting minority of Scottish people get the independence they want, and then see how their country does. In truth though, I think the British Isles should stay joined as a Union. Breaking up countries and setting divides between nations is not the way forward.

Plus without the Scottish Labour vote, we would be locked into a permanent Conservative government in England. Depending on your political leaning this is either great, or disastrous news. Without the Scottish vote in the last election the Conservatives would have had a majority, and the coalition wouldn't exist, and we all know what a good job they are doing

Quite - I love Scotland it is a wonderful place and the vast majority of Scots I have met have been wonderful too.

 

[sten_super]

I am to far away to really know, but is it really going to make much difference to your average Englishman?

There would presumably be some additional public sector spending to be re-allocated to England (although I've no idea what the scale of that is, probably not as much as many would have you believe). We'd lose a significant portion of the oil revenues but the best of them have already been realised.

A lot would depend upon the agreement over debt - I'd assume that an independent Scotland would have to absorb some portion (probably less than their per capita share) of the UK government debt.

On the politics - I think this needs to be completely disregarded. If it results in the Tories being elected in perpetuity, that is clearly the will of the people which, after all, is the aim of a democratic system. I suspect that there would be a gradual move away to more evenly matched parties over time, as a result of a move both from the Labour party and the voting public in certain areas.

 

[Brovion]

... May I ask what has changed your mind about nationalism? (pm me if you like to avoid the binfest)

There were lots of factors, far too many to list here or in a PM! It was just a gradual change which went hand-in-hand with the realisation that the EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, uncontrollable institution directly responsible for (almost) all the problems in Europe today. That's quite a shift from someone who used to call themselves a 'European' and indeed actively campaigned for a 'Yes' vote in the 1975 referendum with an umbrella group called Y.E.S. (Young European Socialists)!

 

[BadFish]

There were lots of factors, far too many to list here or in a PM! It was just a gradual change which went hand-in-hand with the realisation that the EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, uncontrollable institution directly responsible for (almost) all the problems in Europe today. That's quite a shift from someone who used to call themselves a 'European' and indeed actively campaigned for a 'Yes' vote in the 1975 referendum with an umbrella group called Y.E.S. (Young European Socialists)!

Fair enough, although I don't see the failure of the EU as any kind of signal that we should all become raving nationalists spitting bile over our border to Johnny Foreigner (not suggesting for one moment that you are!). I am not sure nationalistic fervor will be very helpful in the dissection of the EU and the factors in it's failure. From where I am sitting those factors have more to do with an over bureaucratic and cumbersome political system (chuck in ome corruption and cronyism for good measure) than anything else (although i freely admit to not being an expert).

From what I can see the UK has worked pretty well for quite a long period of time and as the ld adage goes... if it aint broke don't fix it. Of course there does seem to be a new adage in modern politics..... it there is no oil, don't bother.

 

[Brovion]

...

From what I can see the UK has worked pretty well for quite a long period of time and as the ld adage goes... if it aint broke don't fix it. Of course there does seem to be a new adage in modern politics..... it there is no oil, don't bother.

That's fair enough, indeed I'm sure some people thought like that when Ireland wanted independence.

 

[User removed 4]

do you think any of them are thinking 'sh*t, they called our bluff'.

Yes , the slovaks did exactly the same to the czechs , who happily waved them goodbye.

 

[User removed 4]

As someone with Scottish ancestors, I might consider taking out Scottish citizenship. Will we be able to hold two passports?

Why? What possible benefit could it be ?

 

[BadFish]

That's fair enough, indeed I'm sure some people thought like that when Ireland wanted independence.

To be honest if the majority of Scots want independence then good luck to them, I will still respect them and their beautiful country. It will be the endless name calling, petty stereotyping and xenophobia that we will have to endure from both sides of the border that I think we can all really do without.

 

[The Spanish]

Why? What possible benefit could it be ?

the Scottish one will be grease proof.

 

[User removed 4]

To be honest if the majority of Scots want independence then good luck to them, I will still respect them and their beautiful country. It will be the endless name calling, petty stereotyping and xenophobia that we will have to endure from both sides of the border that I think we can all really do without.

Lets be clear on this , any of what you have mentioned above is really only a response by the english to years and years of snide comments and hostility from the scots which has only increased since the film braveheart was released, i can remember being pretty much as supportive of scotland in the 1974 world cup as i would have been england, not any more , i refuse to be the sort of prat who gives a polite titter in response to some jock cvnt joyfully telling me how much he likes seeing us get beaten/supports anyone who plays us etc etc , the same goes for the welsh who hate us as much , if not more than the scots.