Can Labour actually win the next election and make a difference?

[drew]

The problem is that the big 6 that generate the power hide their profits. They keep going on about they only make £50 profit per customer but that is just the domestic supply profit. They don't tell us what profit they make from generating and then selling that power to their own division to sell on to us.

 

[yxee]

Isn't the whole idea behind a price cap on gas and electricity prices to tell the energy cartel they won't get away with ripping off customers ? When the price cap ends in 2017 there will be a new regulator in place because Ofgem has been toothless.

What happens when you cap the price? Demand exceeds supply. So what does he plan to do when there are rolling blackouts, and no investment in the future because none of the energy companies are bothering to invest in a country that doesn't let it make a reasonable rate of return?

Does anyone seriously think energy prices are where they are because of huge profit margins from the energy companies? They're still competing with one another, and nobody is fining them for price fixing... the prices are high because GLOBAL prices are high.



It's populist nonsense that simply won't work.

I was on the fence before this garbage.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

What happens when you cap the price? Demand exceeds supply. So what does he plan to do when there are rolling blackouts, and no investment in the future because none of the energy companies are bothering to invest in a country that doesn't let it make a reasonable rate of return?

Does anyone seriously think energy prices are where they are because of huge profit margins from the energy companies? They're still competing with one another, and nobody is fining them for price fixing... the prices are high because GLOBAL prices are high.



It's populist nonsense that simply won't work.

I was on the fence before this garbage.

So thousands of OAPs dying from hypothermia in the winter months because they cannot afford to have the heating on is acceptable ? Its not about a reasonable rate of return but pure greed on the part of the gas and electricity companies because the profits not only have to cover re-investment , they've got to go toward the executive bonuses and ever increasing dividend payouts to the shareholders too.

 

[yxee]

So thousands of OAPs dying from hypothermia in the winter months because they cannot afford to have the heating on is acceptable ? Its not about a reasonable rate of return but pure greed on the part of the gas and electricity companies because the profits not only have to cover re-investment , they've got to go toward the executive bonuses and ever increasing dividend payouts to the shareholders too.

Yes, this is how companies works. Shall we cap the price of a big mac while we're at it? If I'm having a conversation with someone who wants state ownership of everything to prevent the evil fat cats killing OAPs, then I don't really see much progress being made!

Ideological differences are just that, what I was saying is Ed Miliband's policy here is going to destroy investment (=£1bn off Centrica's share price overnight can't have filled them with confidence in their UK market), and the only reason he's doing this is to win votes, and legitimise Labour's lingering "living-standards" style criticism of the government's economic policy.

"oh look, the Tories got us out of a recession but everyone is still broke, well, let us fix that for you (and destroy investment in the energy sector for a generation)"

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Yes, this is how companies works. Shall we cap the price of a big mac while we're at it? If I'm having a conversation with someone who wants state ownership of everything to prevent the evil fat cats killing OAPs, then I don't really see much progress being made!

Ideological differences are just that, what I was saying is Ed Miliband's policy here is going to destroy investment (=£1bn off Centrica's share price overnight can't have filled them with confidence in their UK market), and the only reason he's doing this is to win votes, and legitimise Labour's lingering "living-standards" style criticism of the government's economic policy.

"oh look, the Tories got us out of a recession but everyone is still broke, well, let us fix that for you (and destroy investment in the energy sector for a generation)"

We all know how this is going to end up. The gas and electricity prices will shoot up by 20% in late 2014 with another 20% price rise in March/April 2015. The price cap will be applied for 18 months and the Big 6 will be happy because they've raked it in before the price freeze.

 

[beorhthelm]

So thousands of OAPs dying from hypothermia in the winter months because they cannot afford to have the heating on is acceptable ?

no its not. yet government policy imposes 20% of the bill. who do you think is paying for the wind power at 4x the cost of coal, the FIT for domestic solar and the infrastructure to cover the shortfall of unpredicatble, transient renewable energy sources.

Its not about a reasonable rate of return but pure greed on the part of the gas and electricity companies because the profits not only have to cover re-investment , they've got to go toward the executive bonuses and ever increasing dividend payouts to the shareholders too.

the focus always comes back to this: bonues and dividends. bonuses are bad, unfortunate part of having companies. dividends though is another matter, thats going to those who have invested in the company for long term returns. who do you think will pay for new infrastructure if there was no return? the government could do it, but then they would have to borrow money, paying interest to... the same people. so, do we want government or corporations running the energy network, taking other peoples money and investing for 10, 15, 20 years for a small annual return?

when are we going to grow up out of silly debates about who owns what and understand where the fincancing comes from? the sad thing is, as Miliband has shown even the politicians arent above this level of understanding. a man who in office imposed taxes and subsidies on our energy bills yesturday told us he'd freeze energy bills. having blocked core investment, he's now signalled investment be postponded. the shrill cry of lights going out might go too far, but considering there was already fears of power shortages at the end of the decade, that risk has become probable now at least for businesses and industry. if i seem ranty on this, its because energy policy is already focked and it just got more focked, i cant believe they will play politics with such fundementals of modern living.

 

[Don Quixote]

I expect that Labour will achieve a majority overall in the house of commons, but I doubt if it will be possible to achieve a majority government. It will call into question then if it is fair when inevitably Cameron continues at PM, desperately clinging to power.

 

[cunning fergus]

So thousands of OAPs dying from hypothermia in the winter months because they cannot afford to have the heating on is acceptable ? Its not about a reasonable rate of return but pure greed on the part of the gas and electricity companies because the profits not only have to cover re-investment , they've got to go toward the executive bonuses and ever increasing dividend payouts to the shareholders too.

I wouldn't worry, thousands are dying anyway........

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ed-in-leaked-government-analysis-8731985.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9635878/Probe-into-use-of-death-pathway-by-NHS.html

Neither Labour or the Tories had an answer to this increasing problem because to get it sorted properly it will cost this country's taxpayers billions, on top of the billions we will all have to find for future increasing PFI payments and public sector pensions.

To be honest if I had the choice as an OAP I would rather turn off the heating in my own house and fade away with dignity in a cold snap than face the end in a care home surrounded by the lowest paid workers in the country, who probably won't even understand me.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/dec/02/migrant-workers-care-older-people

Free cigarettes could have unintended benefits...........

 

[piersa]

coalition with ukip

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

From the profit figures I've seen for the past 4 years the private energy companies can afford to be building at least 1 power station per year (regardless of cost or fuel type).

The fact that they aren't doing so though is the problem, and if that money is ending up in investors pockets, then it will cost still more to borrow it off them at a later date.

My prediction for the future; The big 6 will do nothing about building new power stations, but they will diversify away from power generation until eventually the last power station goes off. At that point someone with common sense will step up to the plate and demand that the industry is reformed so that IF we allow private companies to own our power stations, then they have to do what WE tell them.

Frankly, this is all starting to look like Connex's f*** up of their rail franchise, and someone ( that means at least one of the Power Generation Co's ) has to act before the rot really sets in. Otherwise the carrot will have to be replaced by the big stick.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

I have copied and pasted this recent IMechE article simply to highlight precisely what an impossible circle the current Govt are trying to join up.

" The protracted negotiations over a “strike price”, or subsidy for the nuclear industry for new build, show no signs of coming to a conclusion.

Ed Davey, the coalition energy secretary, has gone on the record to say that he is seeking the best deal possible for the British public – and while that effort continues, the building of a new plant by EDF and its French partner Areva at Hinkley Point seems further away than ever.

Some have already commented that EDF has the government “over a barrel” in terms of the negotiations. The difficulty in agreeing on a price that satisfies the French utility while also ensuring that consumers aren't ripped off only serves to highlight the stasis afflicting new build in Britain.

Now some believe that the government may simply walk away. Had they done this a year ago, when hype over the Hinkley Point C project was at its greatest, there would have been outrage given the effort that had gone into conducting the generic design assessment and post-Fukushima deliberations of Mike Weightman. A year down the line people are losing interest. Westinghouse, which took its AP1000 reactor design through the majority of the GDA, was quick to retreat once RWE npower and E.on backed out of the Horizon project, which aims to build new reactors at Wylfa, Anglesey, and Oldbury, Gloucestershire. There is no competition and no movement. Walk now, and perhaps few will be up in arms.

Horizon, now owned by Japan's Hitachi, could see that company's own reactor built on these sites – perhaps even before EDF gets a reactor up and running. It is thought that with one proven design to get through the GDA, it could negotiate this process relatively quickly. Could a reactor be constructed at Wylfa before Hinkley Point?

Some industry insiders are also worried, bearing in mind delays and escalating costs in the construction of Areva's EPR at Normandy and in Finland, that building the same design on these shores could tarnish Britain's nuclear industry. Perhaps another reason to favour Hitachi and Horizon. It's even thought that the Japanese company is prepared to be “a bit more reasonable” in terms of the subsidy it demands.

If the government and EDF can reach agreement then this will be a moot point. But the French companies must consider the impact of the Japanese latecomer on the scene. It's turning the heads of ministers and nuclear industry veterans. "

It also highlights that all the investment (from public sector taxes) that we made in previous decades to develop our own Magnox and Gas Cooled station designs was money down the drain........ We have as a nation failed to use that R&D investment to support a UK owned Nuclear Generation manufacturer. The power stations we designed and built and are reaching the end of their design life are now built by our global competitors. Instead it's American, French and Japanese workers and engineers who get the job security if the work is awarded their way, and no doubt they'll favour their own manufacturing industry to actually produce the equipment.

Tragic really, when you think we could train some of our unemployed young to be designing and building the needs of this country's future. Instead we let them sit on benefits whilst we buy that expertise from other nations at exhorbitant cost to ourselves.

 

[LargeHadronZugzwang]

Take from the needy and give to the greedy. Cap Bankers bonuses by double and our Chancellor tries to get this decision reversed. What is the point of Politicians that look after vested interests rather than the people? What is more he is using tax payers money to fight their cause.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...egal-challenge-to-EU-cap-on-bank-bonuses.html

 

[beorhthelm]

... It's even thought that the Japanese company is prepared to be “a bit more reasonable” in terms of the subsidy it demands.

If the government and EDF can reach agreement then this will be a moot point. But the French companies must consider the impact of the Japanese latecomer on the scene. It's turning the heads of ministers and nuclear industry veterans. "

interesting point in there, Japanese have banned and shut down the whole industry, so there are nuclear plant construction companies with no work.

training is complex though, you cant take kids today off the dole and train them to be nuclear engineers, you need to train a generation so that a few good enough can become nuclear engineers in a generations time. as i understand it, most the engineers and managers at the foreign owned and operated plants are still Brits, and we are throughout the industry no matter what flag owns the company. a bit like Formula 1.

Take from the needy and give to the greedy. Cap Bankers bonuses by double and our Chancellor tries to get this decision reversed. What is the point of Politicians that look after vested interests rather than the people? What is more he is using tax payers money to fight their cause.

might be complex for you, but i'll try. the banker gets paid roughly the same either way, the difference is whether its in their base salary, which they get for turning up and doing some trades risk free, or in a bonus, which they get if they turn up and make alot of profits to hit targets while mitigating risk to avoid losses. which would you actually prefer? (no pay or no bankers is not a option for this exercise, they exist get over it).

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

" As i understand it, most the engineers and managers at the foreign owned and operated plants are still Brits "

In reality, Nuclear Engineering isn't 'specialised', it's a mature industry, and any decent engineer can pick up the principals just as they do if they move from (say) the oil industry to a car manufacturer.

Discounting the 'day-to-day' operational staff. I'm talking about the design engineers, the construction companies, the structural engineers, the steel manufacturers, the concrete suppliers, the pump manufacturers, the steam turbine manufacturers, the fuel reprocessors, the control systems, the overhead lifting equipment and so forth etc.

I'll guarentee you if Westinghouse build a nuclear power station, it will be American turbines, American Construction and American Steel. It will probably even have 'Old Glory' flying from the flagpole.

If the French (EDF) get ithe contract, just replace 'American' with 'French'.

You need steel companies with experience of Shipbuilding to build nuclear pressure containment vessels and if we had a British Nuclear manufacturer it would be talking to someone like Vospers, but don't expect Westinghouse to. EDF will go to Alsthom.

UK suppliers won't get much of a look in. So all the profits, and the tax on those profits, certainly won't be going George Osbourne's direction. If we still owned British Steel and didn't let it get taken over, then the Chancellor might have benefitted. But it's even worse than just the profits and the Treasury.

None of the spending power of the UK suppliers employees will be finding its way to UK High Streets. That's no investment for UK schools, hospitals. No UK employess going on holiday or day trips to (Brighton). No recruitment of UK apprentices. No need to recruit UK Engineers. No building of (UK) JCB's because it will all be Caterpillars or similar. The effect is like woodworm chomping it's way through every layer of the economy.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Just received my Labour Party annual subscription notification. Here's to 2015.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

" As i understand it, most the engineers and managers at the foreign owned and operated plants are still Brits "

In reality, Nuclear Engineering isn't 'specialised', it's a mature industry, and any decent engineer can pick up the principals just as they do if they move from (say) the oil industry to a car manufacturer.

Discounting the 'day-to-day' operational staff. I'm talking about the design engineers, the construction companies, the structural engineers, the steel manufacturers, the concrete suppliers, the pump manufacturers, the steam turbine manufacturers, the fuel reprocessors, the control systems, the overhead lifting equipment and so forth etc.

I'll guarentee you if Westinghouse build a nuclear power station, it will be American turbines, American Construction and American Steel. It will probably even have 'Old Glory' flying from the flagpole.

If the French (EDF) get ithe contract, just replace 'American' with 'French'.

You need steel companies with experience of Shipbuilding to build nuclear pressure containment vessels and if we had a British Nuclear manufacturer it would be talking to someone like Vospers, but don't expect Westinghouse to. EDF will go to Alsthom.

UK suppliers won't get much of a look in. So all the profits, and the tax on those profits, certainly won't be going George Osbourne's direction. If we still owned British Steel and didn't let it get taken over, then the Chancellor might have benefitted. But it's even worse than just the profits and the Treasury.

None of the spending power of the UK suppliers employees will be finding its way to UK High Streets. That's no investment for UK schools, hospitals. No UK employess going on holiday or day trips to (Brighton). No recruitment of UK apprentices. No need to recruit UK Engineers. No building of (UK) JCB's because it will all be Caterpillars or similar. The effect is like woodworm chomping it's way through every layer of the economy.

Whilst assembled in the UK I heard on the BBC that JCB's are only 30% UK when it comes to manufacture. 70% is sourced from abroad and interestingly Italy manufactures a fair amount of the parts.

 

[LargeHadronZugzwang]

might be complex for you, but i'll try. the banker gets paid roughly the same either way, the difference is whether its in their base salary, which they get for turning up and doing some trades risk free, or in a bonus, which they get if they turn up and make alot of profits to hit targets while mitigating risk to avoid losses. which would you actually prefer? (no pay or no bankers is not a option for this exercise, they exist get over it).

Thanks for the explanation, might be worth explaining your explanation. So base salary would have to be raised to compensate for the loss of a bonus that is ten times their salary? Is that what you are driving at? The idea that Bankers do not get enough on their salary is an absurdity. Maybe you'd like to wheel out the old myth of them going abroad or the politics of envy to add to further the justification? The idea that Investment Bankers are all of a sudden going to turn up at food banks or will be having no pay, is patently laughable.

 

[cunning fergus]

Take from the needy and give to the greedy. Cap Bankers bonuses by double and our Chancellor tries to get this decision reversed. What is the point of Politicians that look after vested interests rather than the people? What is more he is using tax payers money to fight their cause.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...egal-challenge-to-EU-cap-on-bank-bonuses.html

Regardless of whether you want a bankers cap or not this is a matter of constitutional jurisdiction.

The EU Commission can create directives and regulations. Directives are signed off by the European Parliament and then implemented in the member states by their own Parliament, whereby they may (or may not) adjust the obligations of the Directive. So for example the Markets in Financial Instruments Directive "MiFID" is a straight "write out" in the FCA Conduct of Business Sourcebook "COBS". The UK also sought to develop some of the MiFID obligations, and therefore in addition to MiFID there are additional regulatory obligations for firms imposed by the FCA.

Regulations on the other hand can be imposed on the member states directly from the Commission or following sign off by the European Parliament. There is no implementation by the Parliament of the member state they go straight into statute.

The bankers bonus aspect is tied into both an EU Directive and an EU Regulation.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/pra/pages/crdiv/default.aspx

Frankly we may not like the tories, (or the bankers) however the tories have democratic legitimacy to the UK electorate/business..............Manuel Borosso and the other Commissioners in the EU do not..............so, in this case Osborne is right...............even if you think his motives are wrong.

 

[LargeHadronZugzwang]

Democratic legitimacy hmmmmmm

 

[worthingseagull123]

What are Labour going to for the average person, the ones not effected by the bedroom tax and can't claim benefits. How about a reduction in VAT, or an increase on the minimum wage. Are Labour going to reduce the living costs for people, is our council tax going to go down. Are they going to force energy companies to lower their bills. These are the things that effect people the most, because it dictates how much money we have left in our pockets and how much we can spend. What about that touchy issue around migration? Actually better not mention that because that doesn't even register on their radar. Nothing that Labour says fills me with any confidence, I feel it will just be the same.

What has the coalition done for the average person?