Can Labour actually win the next election and make a difference?

[Napper]

An energy company recently announcing paying billions dividends . Guess that's what they call re investment haha

Shame on anyone believing the propaganda churned out . Educate , read and think outside what you are fed on the bbc

 

[beorhthelm]

... So base salary would have to be raised to compensate for the loss of a bonus that is ten times their salary? Is that what you are driving at?

yes, they will. what, you think the traders and bankers will lose out? its not a matter of whether you think they are paid too much or not, its reality. they arent going to disappear. so back to the question, how would you prefer their pay to be determined?

What has the coalition done for the average person?

increased tax allowance. everyones a winner on that one, even if theres not much else.

 

[worthingseagull123]

They are all as bad as each other. I won't vote again. No party represents me and I have no confidence in any of them. I imagine whoever takes over, will be no better than whoever they replace.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

Whilst assembled in the UK I heard on the BBC that JCB's are only 30% UK when it comes to manufacture. 70% is sourced from abroad and interestingly Italy manufactures a fair amount of the parts.

Exactly my point. The West Midlands used to have a thriving automotive components supply industry - they would have benefited in principal if JCB was 100% UK owned. When foreign owners take over, they favour their own national suppliers, it's human nature - if you're French and don't speak English fluently, the instinct is to deal with a French Company operating from a French base, with easier transport links and lower transport costs. Remember when Honda in Japan shut down because of economic problems, the Honda plant in SWINDON had to shut down because they didn't have the parts to assemble.

Company owners, and Company location DO influence where you source your raw materials. In the case of the US, it's a matter of national pride, and patriotism, in the case of China, it's a language barrier and cultural issue. In India it's because their labour is dirt cheap. In reality, no Indian car assembly plant is going to be importing speedometers, or tyres, or engines or transmission from Longbridge, Dagenham, or Wolverhampton. The transport costs alone make that a non-starter. Now multiply that to every other manufacturing sector ( e.g. shipbuilding ). For a shipbuilder based in Korea, they want LOCAL suppliers to keep costs down, maintain their inventory and supply steel 'on demand ' ( the Japanese invented the whole Just In Time' production model ). They'll get their steel from China. They certainly won't be buying it from Port Talbot, or Scunthorpe, or Teeside.

We do design and build nuclear reactors here, because we fit them in our nuclear powered submarines, and they will be going into the two new aircraft carriers. So we have 'a' nuclear capability, but why we've abandoned that capability in Energy generation I simply cannot fathom out.

Even IRAN are developing Nuclear power capability, yeah, believe it, it's real. And that's whilst under a severe economic sanctions regime. Why, because they need security of energy supply. Realistically, a Nuclear bomb is of no use to them if Israel can lob one back in their direction, they realise that just as Ronald Regan and Michael Gorbachov did. They had years of conflict with Iraq over their border and control of oil when Saddam was in charge, and it really hurt their economy, and killed 1,000's of their population, but still they see nuclear energy as part of their national 'infrastructure'. North Korea have a somewhat skewed world view, but even in the West we have to acknowledge that developing nuclear power stations reinforces their independance from 'Big Oil' and it's domination of the energy market. If the post Soviet Union world won't trade with them, self sufficiency is their only option. You can thank the Soviet Union for the fact they've got the capability, but what's done is done and it's no point trying to wish history away.

I mentioned the reduced likelihood for recruitment, people don't need to relocate, that also means fewer house sales and purchases, less work for estate agent and solicitors, less mortgage lending, less likelihood of people replacing furniture and carpets, fewer sales in DIY stores, etc. It also means less requirement for skills training, fewer college courses, less teachers or lecturers in Universities. The effects can be pervading in surprising and unexpected directions.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Whilst assembled in the UK I heard on the BBC that JCB's are only 30% UK when it comes to manufacture. 70% is sourced from abroad and interestingly Italy manufactures a fair amount of the parts.

I used to work for a company that manufacturered the Valves for JCB, Caterpillar, New Holland, Massey Ferguson, John Deer. Unfortunately I don't need to tell you, the company closed down and the parts where shipped out to be manufacturerd somewhere cheaper. Lots of manufacturing jobs lost. I also ended up at Parker Pen again gone, more jobs lost. When are we going to start manufacturing properly again in this country. We keep being told that the economy is recovering, but most of the jobs on offer are working in the service sector. It's a joke. Instead of pissing away our money, why is there not an emphasis on manufacturing and training our young people up. We don't need more cheap labour from the EU and Non EU, we need proper jobs and trades.

 

[Titanic]

I am glad not everyone is as pessimistic about British manufacturing as the Ed Miliband style 'everything is a crisis' miserablists would have us believe!

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...hy-do-we-still-think-its-a-goner-8648097.html

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

Yes, this is how companies works. Shall we cap the price of a big mac while we're at it? If I'm having a conversation with someone who wants state ownership of everything to prevent the evil fat cats killing OAPs, then I don't really see much progress being made!

Ideological differences are just that, what I was saying is Ed Miliband's policy here is going to destroy investment (=£1bn off Centrica's share price overnight can't have filled them with confidence in their UK market), and the only reason he's doing this is to win votes, and legitimise Labour's lingering "living-standards" style criticism of the government's economic policy.

"oh look, the Tories got us out of a recession but everyone is still broke, well, let us fix that for you (and destroy investment in the energy sector for a generation)"

But Centrica have already pulled out of investing in off-shore gas storage in depleted North Sea gas fields because they claimed the economic case didn't stack up, and that was waaaay back in August, long before ANY party conference speech.

Please credit us with a little more common sense than that. Putting the blame on a 2 hour speech in the Brighton centre is so laughable it's a joke, surely ?? If you think Company directors really base their investment strategies on anything other than studying the business case you gotta be a bit deluded. If anything they will have to revise their spend profiles over a 22 month period, but it certainly won't change a 'yes' decision into a 'no'. Especially if that 'no' was decided many months before, on purely economics of what return they want over what period of time.

Energy investment isn't short term investment for short term return, it's long term investment for long term return, and in those timescales, 22 months makes little if any difference at all.

Now they might be running scared that their cosy relationship about being both wholesaler and distributor is being broken up because it means that the source of their profits and how they can manipulate those profit margings is going to be cruelly exposed to public scrutiny. Cartels or monoplies always make the same kind of complaint when they are told to be open and up front about their 'true' accounting practice. The bankers did exactly the same when they were told to fess up about bonuses. They claimed MASS exodus of talent from the City of London. But it hasn't happened, and frankly, this kind of scaremonger tactics aren't credible.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

I am glad not everyone is as pessimistic about British manufacturing as the Ed Miliband style 'everything is a crisis' miserablists would have us believe!

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...hy-do-we-still-think-its-a-goner-8648097.html

With all due respect, Mini, Jaguar and Landrover add up (in quantity of cars produced for the UK DOMESTIC) market to a fraction of what we used to have.

For every Jaguar made, think back to the Rover 75 (which was a beautiful car to my eyes) and the collapse caused by Phoenix Consortium.

Now take a look at the Longbridge site on Google earth - and think of all the people who relied on Rover over the years for their livelihood.

How did we let this happen?

More importantly, what do we need to do DIFFERENTLY in the future to make sure it NEVER happens again?
(Because if you repeat the mistakes of the past, the outcome won't be any different.)

Would the Germans have let this happen to VW when they were subject to a hostile takeover from competitors in 2005 or would they have got someone like Porsche to buy the Company? (that's a rhetorical question obviously).

Now a 'Buy British' campaign sounds like a throwback to the 1970's, but in reality a similar campaign today cannot exist, simply because there often is NO British competitor in a particular manufacturing sector.

For example, if I want to buy a new ship, can I get it made in Britain. If I want to buy a new suit, can I get it made in Britain. If I want to buy a new mobile phone, can I get it made in Britain, if I want to buy a new train (for Thameslink say), can I get it made in Britain (yes but only just), and when someone suggested I go somewhere else the political fallout was huge, because there's British Jobs, and British livelihoods at stake. And that political furore really makes my point for me. We really have gone from being 'Great' Britain, to 'weak', 'feeble' and 'emaciated' Britain.

Sorry, but the truth is the truth, even if it hurts to say it. And I really did feel physically sick when I chose those 3 epithets, but that's the way I view this Country now, in comparison to how I felt as a child.

 

[Titanic]

...Sorry, but the truth is the truth, even if it hurts to say it. And I really did feel physically sick when I chose those 3 epithets, but that's the way I view this Country now, in comparison to how I felt as a child.

Ok... I know it is the Daily Mail.. but it was the first of many similar articles I found in a few seconds of searching...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...any-How-UK-car-production-capital-Europe.html

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I used to work for a company that manufacturered the Valves for JCB, Caterpillar, New Holland, Massey Ferguson, John Deer. Unfortunately I don't need to tell you, the company closed down and the parts where shipped out to be manufacturerd somewhere cheaper. Lots of manufacturing jobs lost. I also ended up at Parker Pen again gone, more jobs lost. When are we going to start manufacturing properly again in this country. We keep being told that the economy is recovering, but most of the jobs on offer are working in the service sector. It's a joke. Instead of pissing away our money, why is there not an emphasis on manufacturing and training our young people up. We don't need more cheap labour from the EU and Non EU, we need proper jobs and trades.

Totally with you. And I do not follow the idea that all manufacturing jobs are being lost to low cost countries like China. A lot of UK car parts are made cheaply in Italy, Germany manufactures loads of stuff, most of the huge cruise ships we see sailing out of the UK are built in Finland and fitted in Germany. If they can do it so can we.

Parker Pen was a huge shame. I worked there before I went to uni and have a real soft spot for the company and I still use the silver Parker my gran got me for my 21st 24 years ago. Bevan Funnell was another. My father used to work there, that's gone as well. I worked there briefly as well. They really gave me a sense of worth and purpose which other jobs I did around that time in more service orientated positions did not.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

With all due respect, Mini, Jaguar and Landrover add up (in quantity of cars produced for the UK DOMESTIC) market to a fraction of what we used to have.

For every Jaguar made, think back to the Rover 75 (which was a beautiful car to my eyes) and the collapse caused by Phoenix Consortium.

Now take a look at the Longbridge site on Google earth - and think of all the people who relied on Rover over the years for their livelihood.

How did we let this happen?

Would the Germans have let this happen to VW when they were subject to a hostile takeover from competitors in 2005 or would they have got someone like Porsche to buy the Company? (that's a rhetorical question obviously).

Now a 'Buy British' campaign sounds like a throwback to the 1970's, but in reality a similar campaign today cannot exist, simply because there often is NO British competitor in a particular manufacturing sector.

For example, if I want to buy a new ship, can I get it made in Britain. If I want to buy a new suit, can I get it made in Britain. If I want to buy a new mobile phone, can I get it made in Britain, if I want to buy a new train (for Thameslink say), can I get it made in Britain (yes but only just), and when someone suggested I go somewhere else the political fallout was huge, because there's British Jobs, and British livelihoods at stake. And that political furore really makes my point for me. We really have gone from being 'Great' Britain, to 'weak', 'feeble' and 'emaciated' Britain.

Sorry, but the truth is the truth, even if it hurts to say it. And I really did feel physically sick when I chose those 3 epithets, but that's the way I view this Country now, in comparison to how I felt as a child.

Well put and you echo my feelings much more eloquently than I ever have done on these pages

 

[Titanic]

The Top 5 Best Selling British-made cars of 2012 (with number is brackets):
Nissan Qashqai (310,837)
Mini Mini (207,530)
Nissan Juke (154,759)
Land Rover Evoque (112,331)
Vauxhall Astra (90,187)

The Top 5 Best Selling British-made car brands of 2012 (number of cars manufactured in the UK in brackets) :
Nissan 510,572
Land Rover 305,467
MINI 207,530
Honda 165,630
Toyota 109,429

That seems like quite a lot to me... and not a crisis or something to be miserable about.... let alone 'physically sick'.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

Ok... I know it is the Daily Mail.. but it was the first of many similar articles I found in a few seconds of searching...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...any-How-UK-car-production-capital-Europe.html

A bit out of date as they've included TVR, and they were bought by a Russian and went bust...........

It's slightly encouraging, but as I've said, the flows of hard currency and goods around the world doesn't mean what's made in Britain, comes from Britain (see my point about Honda). It doesn't point out that whilst we might 'assemble' the component parts, we don't 'make' the component parts. And Morgan, Aerial, Lotus ? They're NOT big players.

Taking a couple of examples, last week I visited a supplier in Derbyshire and went through Birmingham by train. The Fort Dunlop site, home of our most famous tyre manufacturer, is a Travelodge Hotel. Cadbury, bought by Kraft (American) and the Keynsham factory was closed. Production was moved to Poland.

Cadbury, Bourneville, iconic, British, made in Poland Why do we let this happen to our own employees. Are Polish livelihoods more important to us? And if I, as an engineer, want a career in manufacturing does my British paid for education, degree and training mean I go to benefit American shareholders and Polands tax revenues if that's where I have to look for a job. Yes being in the EU means I can do it, unfettered. That's good for Poland, just as it's good for Britain to have Polish plumbers working over here if they contribute to the system, but does any of it make sense? And if it does, does Westminster and it's politicians, and their policies count for anything anymore, because if business work globally, then Politicians making notional arguements about 'Britains' economy, 'Britains' deficit, Britains house building crises and 'Britains' interest are about as relevant and useful as the price of fish...... I might as well emigrate to China, or India, and join a brain drain. Plenty of others have. If you want a carer in oil or petrochemicals forget North Sea - Kuwait, Dubai or Saudii Arabia is where to go.

Perhaps I just haven't adjusted to this new world view enough, but if I don't know where it's all going to end up.........

My question to ANY party leader of ANY hue is "Just what DO we (you) want Britain to be good at? " If a politician can't answer that most fundamental of questions, then why should I ally myself by voting for him. And if his answer doesn't tie in with my ambitions, why should I stay here?

If he says 'I want us to be the best provider of telephone service centres in the world', then f*** that, I'm off on the next flight....... ('cos I really don't see how I can contribute). Sales is not my bag. Chit chat is not my bag. Touchy feely customer relationships just isn't my bag (I'm experienced in being the hard nosed customer placing the order, not the ingratiating service provider and my cynisism is probably too far developed now to change!)

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Totally with you. And I do not follow the idea that all manufacturing jobs are being lost to low cost countries like China. A lot of UK car parts are made cheaply in Italy, Germany manufactures loads of stuff, most of the huge cruise ships we see sailing out of the UK are built in Finland and fitted in Germany. If they can do it so can we.

Parker Pen was a huge shame. I worked there before I went to uni and have a real soft spot for the company and I still use the silver Parker my gran got me for my 21st 24 years ago. Bevan Funnell was another. My father used to work there, that's gone as well. I worked there briefly as well. They really gave me a sense of worth and purpose which other jobs I did around that time in more service orientated positions did not.

Parkers was a brilliant company years ago. When you look at the jobs and conditions on offer years ago, compare it to what we have now, it just shows you what we have lost in this country. Parker Pen was a whole community, you where proud to work for them. Honestly most people now just want to throttle their employers. And your right about worth, when you see something you helped manufacture, it gives you a sense of pride. I have not experienced that in any other jobs I have done since.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

A bit out of date as they've included TVR, and they were bought by a Russian and went bust...........

It's slightly encouraging, but as I've said, the flows of hard currency and goods around the world doesn't mean what's made in Britain, comes from Britain (see my point about Honda). It doesn't point out that whilst we might 'assemble' the component parts, we don't 'make' the component parts. And Morgan, Aerial, Lotus ? They're NOT big players.

Taking a couple of examples, last week I visited a supplier in Derbyshire and went through Birmingham by train. The Fort Dunlop site, home of our most famous tyre manufacturer, is a Travelodge Hotel. Cadbury, bought by Kraft (American) and the Keynsham factory was closed. Production was moved to Poland.

Cadbury, Bourneville, iconic, British, made in Poland Why do we let this happen to our own employees. Are Polish livelihoods more important to us? And if I, as an engineer, want a career in manufacturing does my British paid for education, degree and training mean I go to benefit American shareholders and Polands tax revenues if that's where I have to look for a job. Yes being in the EU means I can do it, unfettered. That's good for Poland, just as it's good for Britain to have Polish plumbers working over here if they contribute to the system, but does any of it make sense? And if it does, does Westminster and it's politicians, and their policies count for anything anymore, because if business work globally, then Politicians making notional arguements about 'Britains' economy, 'Britains' deficit, Britains house building crises and 'Britains' interest are about as relevant and useful as the price of fish...... I might as well emigrate to China, or India, and join a brain drain.

Perhaps I just haven't adjusted to this new world view enough, but if I don't know where it's all going to end up.........

I agree with you. The whole point of the EU was to create opportunity for all. The stupid EU rules have just created one way traffic for workers coming from the poorer EU countries, because of the money and should I dare say it, in some cases the extra benefits we have on offer. Secondly, why should any employer in this country pay more than the minimum wage now, they don't need to and they don't have too. As soon as someone leaves the job, another is ready to take their place on the same money, same conditions. I don't blame prople for wanting to come here, but we have to be honest about how many more people can we take for lots of reasons. It's OK for the people coming here, if something goes wrong with the economy, they can go back home richer than when they first left, we can't. Now in January the restrictions for Romania and Bulgaria are lifted. I'm not hearing of anybody leaving this country to go there, but I am hearing about coach loads of people leaving their country to come here, who does this benefit? Something that seriously winds me up about Labour is they wont talk about the EU, nor will the talk about the levels of migration. If they get in to power, they will have to face it. They can't just dismiss it with the same old claptrap of stopping gangmasters, because it is much much more than that.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

That's not quite true. There are plenty of Europe based jobs now open to me if I wanted them. Currently I work here in the UK (Science and Technology Facilities Council), but I can be seconded overseas on a temporary basis if I decided that's what I wanted ( work collegues here regularly work at CERN, the Institue Lange Langevin in Grenoble, the European Space Agency or ESTEC in Noordvijk in Holland, the telescopes on the Canary Islands ). If I want to quit Govt R & D and go into manufacturing I'm a Chartered Mechanical Engineer. In Germany my equivalent qualification would mean I would be referred to as 'Herr Doktor'. The engineering profession has a EurIng qualification which is pretty much a passport to any equivalent engineering position on the continent, and if I wanted it, applying for it would be a matter of some form filling, an application fee, another interview with my peers, and then I'm all set to pack my bags and go seek....... (subject to a job offer of course). But I don't think my French or German is up to the mark to do that, but English is the universal language of business these days.

One thing I can forget altogether about, is the need to apply for a Visa, or a work permit.

In 1984, when I started my degree, the thought of working in Poland - totally inconcievable. This was Communist, behind the Iron Curtain, and Lech Walensa had just been released from prison by General Jaruselki. Go to Poland and you'd be hailed as the next Philby, Burgess or Maclean.

Another example. The British Airways millenium wheel. Components manufactured in Czech Republic. Again simply would not have happened if it was the '1970's Big Wheel', they'd have been made somewhere like Harland and Wolf in Belfast.

The old Warsaw pact Countries still see manufacturing as an essential part of economic growth, if our politicians don't, who's right and who's wrong? Of course matching product to market is necessary for success, but where there's muck, there's brass, as Yorkshire folk used to say.......

 

[BLOCK F]

Fighter,wow,you certainly have hammered the keyboards on this thread and appear to have a passion for making your views known.
I can't say I have read through all your posts as there aren't enough hours in the day,but how about a new career as a journalist or did I read in one of your posts that you had political aspirations?
Just interested.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

Politics, never.

Journalism, hmmmmm, it's a thought, but it would be engineering (technical) journalism if anything.

No-one can make firm future predictions and people who claim to (like energy companies who put out stories saying they'll sell out and leave) I have no trust in. Just as if they told me next weeks lottery numbers. If the political and regulatory climate adjusts, to survive, you adjust with it. As these companies will. They'll not just disappear. Nor will the power stations they own (I don't like the thought of troops going in to keep power stations running but it's happened before with fire cover, it happened in the general strike of 1926 with 'essential' utilities). They may leave a 'shell' organisation, but someone, like a Laker, Branson or Sugar, will step in to say, look, we got to knock some heads together and get things working.

No government is going to let them play that kind of wild card. There would be chaos. But the way the prices are going, and the way people have to economise, just as Edward Heath did in 1973 with the 3 day week, we can deal with it by thinking 'out of the box'.

 

[Titanic]

An inconvenient truth for Ed Miliband...

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The Top 5 Best Selling British-made cars of 2012 (with number is brackets):
Nissan Qashqai (310,837)
Mini Mini (207,530)
Nissan Juke (154,759)
Land Rover Evoque (112,331)
Vauxhall Astra (90,187)

The Top 5 Best Selling British-made car brands of 2012 (number of cars manufactured in the UK in brackets) :
Nissan 510,572
Land Rover 305,467
MINI 207,530
Honda 165,630
Toyota 109,429

That seems like quite a lot to me... and not a crisis or something to be miserable about.... let alone 'physically sick'.

Made or assembled? big difference. Think you will find most are assembled using mainly foreign parts. And the crap strength of the pound does not make these cars cheaper for export when they are made using parts bought outside the UK. This was all on the BBC some time ago. The UK motor industry is still a basket case.