Brighton bomber wants to attend 25th anniversary

[Brovion]

...
Oh, there are no Irish social clubs here Einstein, just recounting of experiences from my great grandfather and grandmother.

They lived that life, you didn't.

Stories from your great-grandparents! Do you know how pathetic that sounds? "Ooh ooh my great-grandparents told me how nasty the British were and so even though I live in another continent and another century I'm going to keep the flame alive!"

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Indeed. And so it goes on; Irish clubs and societies in places like Australia and America preaching the same old anti-British line that may have had some relevance 100 or even 40 years ago but is now just recycling the same old stories simply for the sake of keeping the feud going.

You mean like how people come on here an preach the same old anti-Palace line that might have had some relevence some time way back

It's not just an Irish thing, it's a human condition.

If it wasn't there wouldn't be fans punching the shit out of each other at Intenational football matches, would there?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Stories from your great-grandparents! Do you know how pathetic that sounds? "Ooh ooh my great-grandparents told me how nasty they British were and so even though I live in another continent and another century I'm going to keep the flame alive!"

So a Jew who lives in Australia shouldn't hold a grudge against the Germans for gassing half their family?

I'd understand if they did, though maybe you don't because it's more than 40 years on.

If you can't understand why they would then you have no compasion.

 

[Brovion]

You mean like how people come on here an preach the same old anti-Palace line that might have had some relevence some time way back

It's not just an Irish thing, it's a human condition.

If it wasn't there wouldn't be fans punching the shit out of each other at Intenational football matches, would there?

Is that the best you can do? I hardly think that having a punch-up at a football match is the same thing; let's wait until Palace fans start shooting and bombing us, or we invade Croydon and introduce a kebab famine, then you can make that comparison.

 

[xenophon]

 

[User removed 4]

fancy explaning how greysteels is a "shared atrocity" tyrone ? or how your great grandparents experience in the south probably 70/80 years ago bear any resemblance to the present troubles or are you just going to dodge it ?

 

[Tui]

So a Jew who lives in Australia shouldn't hold a grudge against the Germans for gassing half their family?

I'd understand if they did, though maybe you don't because it's more than 40 years on.

If you can't understand why they would then you have no compasion.

Not at all.

That's like saying should ALL Brits hate ALL Germans for WW2 or hate ALL Irish... Come on this is stupid.

There is national rivalries and banter, people who slate England i'd give it right back at them. Anybody talks up the IRA i'd put to the floor end off

 

[Brovion]

So a Jew who lives in Australia shouldn't hold a grudge against the Germans for gassing half their family?

I'd understand if they did, though maybe you don't because it's more than 40 years on.

If you can't understand why they would then you have no compasion.

You're not related to cunning fergus are you? Read my earlier posts on page 1, I'm quite happy to admit that people who have suffered, and I mean really suffered, may not be in a position to forgive and move on. That applies to any family in any situation in any conflict and from any side.

But that doesn't apply to you does it? Britain didn't gas half your family in the 1940s; you're a 21st century Australian at least two generations removed from what was, in relation to the holocaust, a minor conflict. Frankly for you to 'hate' the British for our colonial history in Ireland is pathetic.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

fancy explaning how greysteels is a "shared atrocity" tyrone ? or how your great grandparents experience in the south probably 70/80 years ago bear any resemblance to the present troubles or are you just going to dodge it ?

As you have asked nicely sure I'll explain why I see it as a shared atrocity.

It's shared because both Catholics AND Protestants died in the event.

So the sense of loss would be felt in both communities would you not agree?

The fact they were socialising together would suggest they had no issues with each other and in turn would share each others losses.


My Grandmother spent most of her life in Ennistymon(with my GG Grandmother), my Great Grandfather was from Derry and lived there up until 1986 when he died.

So rather than a turn of the century tale is was more recent and relevent than that.

I hope that helps answer your questions.

 

[User removed 4]

As you have asked nicely sure I'll explain why I see it as a shared atrocity.

It's shared because both Catholics AND Protestants died in the event.

So the sense of loss would be felt in both communities would you not agree?

The fact they were socialising together would suggest they had no issues with each other and in turn would share each others losses.


My Grandmother spent most of her life in Ennistymon(with my GG Grandmother), my Great Grandfather was from Derry and lived there up until 1986 when he died.

So rather than a turn of the century tale is was more recent and relevent than that.

I hope that helps answer your questions.

well i'm not going to be so nice in this post, how is an atrocity comitted by loyalists and mentioned by you as being so, a "shared atrocity"? you total and utter fuckwit.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You're not related to cunning fergus are you? Read my earlier posts on page 1, I'm quite happy to admit that people who have suffered, and I mean really suffered, may not be in a position to forgive and move on. That applies to any family in any situation in any conflict and from any side.

But that doesn't apply to you does it? Britain didn't gas half your family in the 1940s; you're a 21st century Australian at least two generations removed from what was, in relation to the holocaust, a minor conflict. Frankly for you to 'hate' the British for our colonial history in Ireland is pathetic.

I'm a 20th century Australian (wish I was younger! )

You must be confused, I don't hate anyone in this situation.

I merely stating I can understand why people do this kind of thing.

If all i looked at was one view of the situation i'd not be getting the full picture.

I actually think the fact the Brits conquered and ruled half the world an amazing achievement.

The effects it had on the people already there is another discusion.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

well i'm not going to be so nice in this post, how is an atrocity comitted by loyalists and mentioned by you as being so, a "shared atrocity"? you total and utter fuckwit.

It's shared by the victims and their families and communities, in this case two community groups who may normally be seen as being opposed to each other.

Thus they are both "sharing" the pain from this atrocity.

 

[User removed 4]

It's shared by the victims and their families and communities, in this case two community groups who may normally be seen as being opposed to each other.

Thus they are both "sharing" the pain from this atrocity.

why then, the first time you mentioned it, did you complain about xenophon only mentioning PIRA atrocities and use greysteels as one of your examples?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

why then, the first time you mentioned it, did you complain about xenophon only mentioning PIRA atrocities and use greysteels as one of your examples?

My main complaint in the issue is that justice hasn't been served to all the killers from both sides.

Perhaps if all victims from both sides got some kind of justice for their losses during the troubles they might not have escalated to the levels they did.

Naturally in these conflicts though it's the people in power who will be less accountable for their actions than those who aren't.

You won't frind in this thread anywhere me saying this IRA guy didn't deserve life prision for his actions.

 

[Storer68]

he has been invited by the All parliamentary Group on Conflict Issues & The Forgiveness Project.

Brighton Bomber and daughter of victim to speak at House of Commons on 25th anniversary of the terrible event
It is organized by The All Party Parliamentary Group on Conflict Issues & The Forgiveness Project

By Dan Wooding
Founder of ASSIST Ministries
LONDON, UK (ANS) -- An extraordinary “forgiveness” event has been scheduled for the British House of Commons on Tuesday, October 13, 2009, when Patrick (Pat) Magee, who planted the Brighton bomb, will speak alongside Jo Berry whose father, Sir Anthony Berry MP, he killed.


Jo Berry and Pat Magee pictured outside the Grand Hotel in Brighton for the first time

The infamous IRA Brighton hotel bombing occurred on October 12, 1984, at the Grand Hotel in Brighton, England. The bomb was planted by Patrick Magee, a member of the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA). It was intended to assassinate Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet, who were staying at the hotel for the Conservative Party conference.

The bomb failed to kill Thatcher or any of her government ministers. Five people, however, were killed, including Conservative MP Sir Anthony Berry, and Parliamentary Treasury Secretary John Wakeham's wife Roberta. Sir Donald Maclean and his wife, Muriel, were in the room in which the bomb exploded. Lady Maclean was not killed in the explosion, but later died of her injuries, and Sir Donald was seriously injured. The other victims killed by the blast were Eric Taylor and Jeanne Shattock. Several more, including Margaret Tebbit—the wife of Norman Tebbit, who was then President of the Board of Trade—were left permanently disabled. Thirty-four people were taken to hospital but recovered from their injuries.

Jo Berry says the bombing threw her into a conflict as she knew very little about the killer. Since then she has visited Ireland many times and worked with victims and former combatants from all sides. In November 2000 she met Pat Magee, the man responsible for her father’s death.


Five people died in the bombing of the Grand Hotel in Brighton in 1984 (Photo PA)

Belfast-born Pat Magee, former IRA activist, was given multiple life sentences for the Brighton Bombing. Released under the Good Friday Agreement in 1999, he has since been actively involved in peace work.

The event is being put on by The All Party Parliamentary Group on Conflict Issues & The Forgiveness Project and in a story on the latter’s website (The Forgiveness Project), Jo explained, “I wanted to meet Pat to put a face to the enemy, and see him as a real human being. At our first meeting I was terrified, but I wanted to acknowledge the courage it had taken him to meet me. We talked with an extraordinary intensity. I shared a lot about my father, while Pat told me some of his story.

“Over the past two and a half years of getting to know Pat, I feel I've been recovering some of the humanity I lost when that bomb went off. Pat is also on a journey to recover his humanity. I know that he sometimes finds it hard to live with the knowledge that he cares for the daughter of someone he killed through his terrorist actions.

“Perhaps more than anything I’ve realized that no matter which side of the conflict you’re on, had we all lived each others lives, we could all have done what the other did. In other words, had I come from a Republican background, I could easily have made the same choices Pat made.”

Pat Magee said on the website: “Some day I may be able to forgive myself. Although I still stand by my actions, I will always carry the burden that I harmed other human beings. But I’m not seeking forgiveness. If Jo could just understand why someone like me could get involved in the armed struggle then something has been achieved. The point is that Jo set out with that intent in mind – she wanted to know why.

“I decided to meet Jo because, apart from addressing a personal obligation, I felt obligated as a Republican to explain what led someone like me to participate in the action. I told her that I’d got involved in the armed struggle at the age of 19, after witnessing how a small nationalist community were being mistreated by the British. Those people had to respond. For 28 years I was active in the Republican Movement. Even in jail I was still a volunteer.

“Between Jo and I, the big issue is the use of violence. I can’t claim to have renounced violence, though I don’t believe I’m a violent person and have spoken out against it. I am 100% in favour of the peace process, but I am not a pacifist and I could never say to future generations, anywhere in the world, who felt themselves oppressed, “Take it, just lie down and take it.”

Magee went on to say, “Jo told me that her daughter had said after one of our meetings, ‘Does that mean that Granddad Tony can come back now?’ It stuck with me, because of course nothing has fundamentally changed. No matter what we can achieve as two human beings meeting after a terrible event, the loss remains and forgiveness can’t embrace that loss. The hope lies in the fact that we are prepared to carry on. The dialogue has continued.

“It’s rare to meet someone as gracious and open as Jo. She’s come a long way in her journey to understanding; in fact, she’s come more than half way to meet me. That’s a very humbling experience.”
The British Houses of Parliament


Commenting on the event, Archbishop Desmond Tutu said, “I think it is good therapy for individuals like Pat and Jo to tell their stories. Finding out the truth from those stories is a key to heal the wounds. Healing comes through understanding and a realization that my humanity is inextricably caught up in yours - no matter what terrible things you might have done."

Gary Streeter MP, Co Chair, All Party Parliamentary Group on Conflict Issues, stated, “Its 25 years since my conservative colleagues were victims of a terrorist bomb attack in Brighton. If it were easy to forgive, we would all do it. It is not easy.

“That is why the All Party Parliamentary Group on Conflict Issues are hosting this event in the House of Commons with the Brighton bomber and the daughter of one he murdered. How can we come to terms with a perpetrator and be reconciled? This is a valuable lesson we all must learn.”

So now, one day after the 25th anniversary of the Brighton bomb, The Forgiveness Project, hosted by The All Party Parliamentary Group on Conflict Issues, will present an important but albeit controversial debate in the heart of the UK Parliament.

Jo also said, “I know that meeting Pat in the House of Commons - the place where my dad worked and where I visited him many times - is going to have a profound effect on me. However, although it will be challenging for me emotionally, it’s something I really want to do – not only because of the potential for conflict resolution but also for my own understanding of building bridges and understanding the roots of violence.”


Sir Anthony Berry

Pat Magee said, “I hope that by Jo and I coming to the House of Commons some benefit will be derived. I have been meeting Jo for a number of years now and for both of us it’s not always easy but the spur to continue comes from all the feedback we get - people who say it has moved them and caused them to think deeply. For me, to be invited into the House of Commons, means some people have moved on.”

Simon Hughes MP, All-Party Parliamentary Group on Conflict Issues says, “Unless forgiveness and reconciliation are achieved as part of robust conflict resolution, there is every chance that conflict can start again - as Northern Ireland demonstrates even now.”

Marina Cantacuzino, founder and director of The Forgiveness Project, said, “The phenomenon of victim and perpetrator meeting and continuing to meet is extremely rare and in the case of Pat and Jo particularly sensitive when taken to the heart of government. The Forgiveness Project believes that in order to understand why people hurt each other it is important to hear the stories of those who have committed acts of terrorism and violence.”

She added, “The dilemma for those of us who create a platform for men like Pat Magee, is how far do we pursue understanding and forgiveness at the risk of offending those who have been most hurt. My belief is that these kind of difficult dialogues, which bring together victim and perpetrator, help to repair the harm done by humanizing violence – that is not to say they make violence palatable but rather help understand under what circumstances ordinary citizens resort to killing, and what might be done to prevent it.”

Note: The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Conflict Issues aims to encourage dialogue, on the basis of expert information and opinion from across the political spectrum, on issues relating to conflict; especially on the practical means to prevent, transform and resolve violent conflict.

The Forgiveness Project is a charitable organization which uses real life stories to explore forgiveness in the face of atrocity. It tells the stories of victims who have embarked on a road of forgiveness or understanding and perpetrators who have sought alternatives to crime and violence. (The Forgiveness Project)

For more information, please contact Wendy Bailey, Head of Communications for the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Conflict Issues by e-mail at: wendy.bailey@conflictissues.org.uk or by mobile +44 (0)7770 665512. The website is: http://www.conflictissues.org.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Wooding, 68, is an award winning British journalist now living in Southern California with his wife Norma, to whom he has been married for 46 years. He is the founder and international director of ASSIST (Aid to Special Saints in Strategic Times) and the ASSIST News Service (ANS). He was, for ten years, a commentator, on the UPI Radio Network in Washington, DC., and now hosts the weekly “Front Page Radio” show on KWVE in Southern California and which is also
carried on the Calvary Radio Network throughout the United States. The program is also aired in Great Britain on UCB UK and Calvary Chapel Radio UK. Wooding is the author of some 43 books. Two of the latest include his autobiography, “From Tabloid to Truth”, which is published by Theatron Books. To order a copy,
press this link. Wooding, who was born in Nigeria of British missionary parents, also recently released “God’s Ambassadors in Japan” which is available at
amazon.com.

 

[User removed 4]

he is just rubbing people's noses in it , murdering c unt.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

That's an excellent article.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

In an interview with the BBC, Wilson described with anguish his last conversation with his daughter and his feelings toward her killers: "She held my hand tightly, and gripped me as hard as she could. She said, 'Daddy, I love you very much.' Those were her exact words to me, and those were the last words I ever heard her say." To the astonishment of listeners, Wilson went on to add, "But I bear no ill will. I bear no grudge. Dirty sort of talk is not going to bring her back to life. She was a great wee lassie. She loved her profession. She was a pet. She's dead. She's in heaven and we shall meet again. I will pray for these men tonight and every night." As historian Jonathan Bardon recounts, "No words in more than twenty-five years of violence in Northern Ireland had such a powerful, emotional impact."

Gordon Wilson speaking on the day his daughter died in the Enniskillen Remembrance Day bombing.

 

[cunning fergus]

Well you may have read it but you didn't understand it. I said there are always going to be people with personal reasons who don't want to 'move on' and I quite understand any one who doesn't. However despite the views of many individuals by 1970 'we' Britain, the nation didn't 'hate' the Germans and the Japanese and we were trying to move forward rather than saying "well we're not going to deal with the Germans because they bombed Coventry."

And yes, I fully accept that worldwide there are many, many examples of not so much 'second-hand' hatred as hundredth-hand hatred being passed down the generatons. And with each year and with every new conflict this cesspit of hatred grows as different people find new reasons to hate another group of people. Now call me a lentil-eating, sandal-wearing hippy peacenik if you like but I think any potential chance to defuse some of this real or just ritual hatred is a 'good thing'.

Brovian, with respect, I think I do understand what you are saying, and I have paraphrased it as follows:

People who have been directly affected by historical events (by way of irrational logic) can justifiably hate a particular nation state and its citizens. Whilst you fully understand why this expression of hate exists, you also believe its important that the younger generations should move things along so we don't dwell on the past and regurgetate old stereotypical hatreds.

In theory I have no problem with that view either and can evidently understand why it is a 'good thing'; as I have said, so long as those 'moving on' are fully cognisant of why such hatred existed in the first place then I have no issue with that.

The rub is though that we dont live in Utopia do we? This board demonstrates there are plenty of people (informed or otherwise) who have their own personal baggage train on what nations have done in the past and therefore what particular tragedy or disadvantage they have created in contemporary society.

How this is dealt with these day's is tricky (a deliberate understatement) particularly given the political classes 'hard on' for apologies on historical wrongs (Mr Brown's recent one on Alan Turing for example). They are like junkies looking for the next fix..........or should I say, constituency of voters to stroke and patronise.

In a previous post the example you used of people 'moving on' and forgiving historical wrongs was the people of Dresden forgiving the RAF; for this reason I am going to call you a mung bean eating, baggy jumpered, yoghurt knitting marxist, which in all fairness is probably not far from where you know you are politically............true?

In a microcosm you have provided a brilliant example of how difficult it is for some people to move on, with your political philosphy you can, I on the other hand am not hard wired to be a 'child of the earth'. I live in the real world comfortable that where there's love, there's hate..............let it be.

 

[User removed 4]

In a previous post the example you used of people 'moving on' and forgiving historical wrongs was the people of Dresden forgiving the RAF; for this reason I am going to call you a mung bean eating, baggy jumpered, yoghurt knitting marxist, which in all fairness is probably not far from where you know you are politically............true?

In brovion's defence ,in previous posts he doesnt come across like that, our politics may differ but he sounds like a half decent bloke most of the time.