Brezovan just a talented amateur

[Ninja Elephant]

Just out of interest, what are you using to compare Michel Kuipers to the rest of the goalkeepers in this league? Statistics? Or qualitative evidence compiled by yourself? Have you seen every goalkeeper in this league? For a few games to judge a qualitative average?

You don't need to see every goalkeeper to know that Michel is a very good goalkeeper. The impact he has on our defence when he plays speaks for itself, when was the last time he conceeded 4 in a match? He had a shocker in the 3-2 defeat to Swindon last season, but since then I think he's been pretty good and he's consistently been a brilliant goalkeeper for us, only Ben Roberts was better than he is and there's no shame in that.

When we find a goalkeeper who performs better than Michel, we'll all be happy enough. But we haven't yet, and we'll go through a few more before finding someone good enough to compete with him in my opinion. I'm not saying he's the best in the league (for me, it's either Fon Williams or Smithies), but he's the only one I'd want in our side right now.

 

[theonesmith]

Just because Hendo AND Smith were garbage, doesn't make my memory any shorter. Preferring one from the other out of those two is like choosing which STD you'd rather have.

Brezovan is clearly not the long term answer either, but he'll have to do for now. As long as I don't see that hopeless hamish haggis flailing around while everything flies past him and through him and under him. I swear the ONLY save I ever saw him make was that pen at Hudds.

Agreed. I personally don't see what Brezovan has done wrong? Commands his box well enough, comes for crosses and seems to be a decent shot stopper? Kicking a bit suspect, but better than Kuipers'

 

[Ninja Elephant]

Just because Hendo AND Smith were garbage, doesn't make my memory any shorter. Preferring one from the other out of those two is like choosing which STD you'd rather have.

Brezovan is clearly not the long term answer either, but he'll have to do for now. As long as I don't see that hopeless hamish haggis flailing around while everything flies past him and through him and under him. I swear the ONLY save I ever saw him make was that pen at Hudds.

That's an unneccessary comparison to make, and completely irrelevant.

Then you're forgetting the brilliant double save against Wycombe in the FA Cup, which even the staunchest anti-Smith fans couldn't argue was brilliant. He made several saves against Stockport aswell, which is easily forgotten considering the 4 that did find their way past him, though 2 of them were when we had 9 men and no protection. You could argue we had no protection at Huddersfield aswell, and Norwich. Snodgrass' strike for Leeds was pretty damn good aswell to be fair, who would have saved that one?

I'm not defending Smith's record, it's CRAP. But I don't think he's as bad as the stats make him seem. I don't think he's better than Michel, but I do feel sorry for the chap. He's come all this way south to be a number 2 and then ship in 3 goals a game on the rare occaison he gets on the pitch.

 

[Acker79]

when was the last time he conceded 4 in a match?

Scunthorpe last season.

 

[theonesmith]

You don't need to see every goalkeeper to know that Michel is a very good goalkeeper. The impact he has on our defence when he plays speaks for itself, when was the last time he conceeded 4 in a match? He had a shocker in the 3-2 defeat to Swindon last season, but since then I think he's been pretty good and he's consistently been a brilliant goalkeeper for us, only Ben Roberts was better than he is and there's no shame in that.

When we find a goalkeeper who performs better than Michel, we'll all be happy enough. But we haven't yet, and we'll go through a few more before finding someone good enough to compete with him in my opinion. I'm not saying he's the best in the league (for me, it's either Fon Williams or Smithies), but he's the only one I'd want in our side right now.

But if you don't see every goalkeeper than you cannot compare- unless you have other, prior, knowledge of goalkeeping. I certainly couldn't say how good Kuipers/Brezovan/Smith are against other keepers in this league.. I suppose to fix your comment, you merely need to insert "In my opinion" first!

My point is I felt Brezovan did well today- was there something I missed?

 

[theonesmith]

Scunthorpe last season.

You have seriously quick access to these sort of statistics, do you have a rather large database on your computer?!

 

[Acker79]

You have seriously quick access to these sort of statistics, do you have a rather large database on your computer?!

After the henderson/kuipers debate I started to keep track of the keeper stats. Did it last year for kuipers/sullivan.

I'm doing it this year too, and have started to keep track of other stats too (including strikers and points/league position). I post them every 9 league games.

It was just a case of opening up the excel file for last year.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

Scunthorpe last season.

Which was in August, right? Which supports my point.

Naturally, it would be daft of me not to point out that Scunthorpe won't be playing us this season because they got promoted.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Ninja. Why are you ready to bin Brezovan, but give Smith a chance?

Seemingly, you have seen them both in a similar amount of games. Brezovan hasn't done much wrong in his spell with us and he was playing against a superior Brighton team in his spell with Swindon.

 

[theonesmith]

After the henderson/kuipers debate I started to keep track of the keeper stats. Did it last year for kuipers/sullivan.

I'm doing it this year too, and have started to keep track of other stats too (including strikers and points/league position). I post them every 9 league games.

It was just a case of opening up the excel file for last year.

Excellent work. When you said Brezovan's stats are better than Kuipers's and Smith's, what stats were you looking at?

 

[Ninja Elephant]

But if you don't see every goalkeeper than you cannot compare- unless you have other, prior, knowledge of goalkeeping. I certainly couldn't say how good Kuipers/Brezovan/Smith are against other keepers in this league.. I suppose to fix your comment, you merely need to insert "In my opinion" first!

My point is I felt Brezovan did well today- was there something I missed?

So if you don't say, "in my opinion", you're not sharing an opinion? That's daft, this is a forum which is JUST opinion, it doesn't need to be stated. I don't look at every goalkeeper comparatively, you don't have to in order to know that Michel is a good goalkeeper and Brezovan isn't as good as he is.

We kept a clean sheet. Shock horror you think he "did well". If you only look at it performance by performance than you're going to be pleased with him about a third of the time, over a longer period of time. If you look at everything you've seen from him, you'll be less pleased. Have you forgotten his pathetic attempts at saving the Forster free kick in 2007? At Withdean, or being lobbed by Jake Robinson in 2006 in a 3-0 Brighton win at the County Ground?

 

[Acker79]

Excellent work. When you said Brezovan's stats are better than Kuipers's and Smith's, what stats were you looking at?

Goals conceded/game (1.00 Brezovan, 1.27 for kuipers, 3.16 for Smith
percentage of on target shots conceded (16.00% Brezovan, 24.36 Kuipers, 46.67% Smith)
% of games with a clean sheet (50% Brezovan, 31% Kuipers, 10% Smith)


Full disclosure, I was trying to bring balance to the debate, so ignored the win rate (33.33% Kuipers, 25.00% Brezovan, 22.22% Smith).

 

[Ninja Elephant]

Ninja. Why are you ready to bin Brezovan, but give Smith a chance?

Seemingly, you have seen them both in a similar amount of games. Brezovan hasn't done much wrong in his spell with us and he was playing against a superior Brighton team in his spell with Swindon.

Because I haven't seen enough of Smith to form a fair and accurate opinion, and I don't think he's as bad as he seems when you look at his statistics. He was #1 at Motherwell for 3 years, that means something to me and I think he must be a good goalkeeper lacking form, and probably confidence aswell. I want to see him do well, same as Brezovan, but I have more faith in Smith than Brezovan.

Similar amount of games? I've seen Smith twice, but I've seen Brezovan 6 times and seen all the highlight reels of his performances at Swindon. Brezovan has been playing in England 3 years and I've seen a lot of him in that time, that's not the case with Smith.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Have you forgotten his pathetic attempts at saving the Forster free kick in 2007? At Withdean, or being lobbed by Jake Robinson in 2006 in a 3-0 Brighton win at the County Ground?

You could easily pick a team and select two disgraceful attempts by Kuipers? I'm thinking Brentford.

We could go round in circles. Brezovan hasn't done too badly in his spell so far and pulled off a couple of decent saves today.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

Goals conceded/game (1.00 Brezovan, 1.27 for kuipers, 3.16 for Smith
percentage of on target shots conceded (16.00% Brezovan, 24.36 Kuipers, 46.67% Smith)
% of games with a clean sheet (50% Brezovan, 31% Kuipers, 10% Smith)


Full disclosure, I was trying to bring balance to the debate, so ignored the win rate (33.33% Kuipers, 25.00% Brezovan, 22.22% Smith).

BALANCE?! Brezovan has played 4 games, how many has Kuipers played? There's no balance in comparing a guy who has played such a vast amount of games fewer.

 

[Acker79]

So if you don't say, "in my opinion", you're not sharing an opinion? That's daft, this is a forum which is JUST opinion, it doesn't need to be stated.

But not everything on here is opinion. There is also data, and fact. A message board is for discussion, and that can include presenting evidence to support your opinion.

When posts can contain opinion, fact, evidence, data, it is good practice to distinguish.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

You could easily pick a team and select two disgraceful attempts by Kuipers? I'm thinking Brentford.

We could go round in circles. Brezovan hasn't done too badly in his spell so far and pulled off a couple of decent saves today.

Examples of why I don't have confidence in Brezovan, not reasons why he's not a good goalkeeper. We all know Michel has made mistakes, that goes without saying for a goalkeeper with 9 years service.

 

[Ninja Elephant]

But not everything on here is opinion. There is also data, and fact. A message board is for discussion, and that can include presenting evidence to support your opinion.

When posts can contain opinion, fact, evidence, data, it is good practice to distinguish.

When you're giving personal views on a player I think it's obvious to anyone it's opinion. If you need that distinguished you've got the problem, not me. (That wasn't a stab at you, the "you" was generic)

 

[theonesmith]

You could easily pick a team and select two disgraceful attempts by Kuipers? I'm thinking Brentford.

We could go round in circles. Brezovan hasn't done too badly in his spell so far and pulled off a couple of decent saves today.

Exactly. Alas, this debate is always a tough one, as the debaters rarely come in with an unbiased point of view- each debater is backing their horse, as you will. Making Acker and his stats a refreshing point of view!

And to Ninja, no you don't always have to state it's your opinion, I just thought you knew more about the subject than you do by your statement.

 

[Acker79]

BALANCE?! Brezovan has played 4 games, how many has Kuipers played? There's no balance in comparing a guy who has played such a vast amount of games fewer.

It isn't fair to compare the stats of Kuipers from 5 years ago, or even last year. I compare Brezovan of this season, with Kuipers of this season.

Kuipers has faced 78 shots on target in 15 matches = 5.2 shots per match.
Brezovan has faced 25 shots on target in 4 matchs = 6.25 shots per match.

I'd say those stats are a fair comparison.

Clean sheet % and win rate are probably less comparable because of Brezovan's comparative few games this year.