[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

You have a democratic right to change your mind at any time but that doesn't give you the right to call for referendum every time.

Do we really know the outcome of leave/stay three years on? I still don't, there's still loads from both sides that is frankly bullshit. We might have a slightly more informed choice however it's still laced with supposition.

A women come in to my local earlier who had just come back from the march. We had a chat about things and whilst I believe a second referendum is wrong I can appreciate it may give clarity (hopefully). She then started on about the fact the EU had kept peace in Europe blah blah blah. I said to her now your losing all credibility in your argument and here is the problem. If we could stop this tosh and spoke of the true benefits of staying and changing from within and showing Europe we're not going to be the cash cow we are at the moment, then remain would win.

The EU has brought nations who have frequently fought wars with each other closer together and reduced the competition between them to become more co-operative, it might not be clear cut, but who could deny that all the leaders of all the member states meeting fairly regularly and discussing shared interest is a + in the keeping peace box.

 

[birthofanorange]

16 is too young. The gravity of the vote, as has been said so many times, should be only be for adults. Children shouldn't be saddled with it.

I agree re: 16, to be fair. However, I do think that all those that have (or will be) granted settled status should have been eligible to vote, too. After all, it's their home as well.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

When I applied for residency of Botswana, I had to fill out a medical form for the Ministry of Labour and Home Affairs. It was a tick box questionnaire, which I then had to take to a private doctor, pay 100 Pula (£10) to have it certified and stamped by his receptionist without ever actually seeing the doctor in person. A very thorough, watertight process I thought. They must have taken advice from The Home Office on how to do it.

Anyway, one of the questions was - Q. Are you a mental retard? Yes/No

I answered no and somehow survived the trauma of encountering the word and didn't take umbrage at them.

I wonder how many get caught out by that question?

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

16 is too young. The gravity of the vote, as has been said so many times, should be only be for adults. Children shouldn't be saddled with it.

You are old enough to have sex, have a child, to pay income tax and NI, but you are not allowed to vote on a major constitutional changethat will affect you? It has consistently been shown on here that many adults don't understand the process they voted for or against.

 

[Hampster Gull]

And I don't think I could make it any clearer. First past the post won, like the Grand National if you like, Red Rum was first and the bookies paid out. It really is that simple. We were told this before the referendum and no-one complained then.

My guess is you’ve never led a large team

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

I wonder how many get caught out by that question?

Probably [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION]. That's why they are still here and not working in Botswana

 

[ManOfSussex]

What next? The PM’s unpalatable Brexit options

Seven scenarios — none of them easy

1. The deal
Though Downing Street may not hold a “meaningful vote” this week following two heavy defeats, support could still be tested with an “indicative vote”.
Chances: very low

2. Revoke article 50
More than 4.5m people have signed an online parliamentary petition calling for an end to Brexit by revoking the UK’s notice to leave under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty which began the Brexit process in March 2017. Most MPs, however, are unlikely to want to vote to revoke now.
Chances: low

3. Second referendum
A “People’s Vote” march in central London yesterday indicated there is strong public support for a second vote on the basis that promises made for Brexit will not be delivered. But a Commons vote recently ended with a big defeat, 334 votes to 85. Labour MPs abstained and a majority of MPs across all parties voted against it.
Chances: better than they were but still unlikely

4. A deal plus customs union membership
Theresa May’s withdrawal deal would be supported if it had a clear path to the UK remaining in a customs union with the EU. Although that is Labour’s position, it may not want to provide solace to May by backing her deal.
Chances: fair. Could tap into the softer Brexit majority in the Commons

5. Common Market 2.0
Parliament could vote to keep the UK in the single market — the Norway option — and in a customs union. This would preserve many economic benefits of EU membership, while still leaving. Opponents say the UK would be under more EU control than as a member and also have to accept the free movement of people.
Chances: good

6. Canada
Tory Eurosceptics favour looser ties with the EU, similar to Canada’s free trade agreement. But getting there would first require backing the withdrawal agreement.
Chances: low

7. No deal
Favoured by some hard Brexiteers but already defeated by MPs — 321 votes to 278. In a free vote it would fail by more.
Chances: very low

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/what-next-the-pms-unpalatable-brexit-options-pq5cqb5df

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

And I don't think I could make it any clearer. First past the post won, like the Grand National if you like, Red Rum was first and the bookies paid out. It really is that simple. We were told this before the referendum and no-one complained then.

And then the winning horse is disqualified for failing a drug test. A win under false and criminal pretences. Everyone was conned.

PS You can stop.

 

[Baldseagull]

Yes, very impressive. Almost as many as people who voted Leave ......................

........ Oh ....................






OK, just about 16M short then.

My postal Marcher didn't arrive in time.

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

Quote Originally Posted by [MENTION=17215]Sussex Nomad[/MENTION]
And I don't think I could make it any clearer. First past the post won, like the Grand National if you like, Red Rum was first and the bookies paid out. It really is that simple. We were told this before the referendum and no-one complained then.

My guess is you’ve never led a large team

They would also payout on the each way bets.

 

[Mtoto]

You are old enough to have sex, have a child, to pay income tax and NI, but you are not allowed to vote on a major constitutional changethat will affect you? It has consistently been shown on here that many adults don't understand the process they voted for or against.

They can also expect to live with the consequences for 60-70 years.

About 500k people of voting age have died each year since the last referendum, and that will also be the case after the next one. Sixteen-year-olds have the most to gain & lose.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Probably [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION]. That's why they are still here and not working in Botswana

 

[WATFORD zero]

16 is too young. The gravity of the vote, as has been said so many times, should be only be for adults. Children shouldn't be saddled with it.

What about the gravity of paying tax, joining the army or having a child ?

 

[LlcoolJ]

https://youtu.be/L9uj2GY1MHQ

 

[nicko31]

What next? The PM’s unpalatable Brexit options

Seven scenarios — none of them easy

1. The deal
Though Downing Street may not hold a “meaningful vote” this week following two heavy defeats, support could still be tested with an “indicative vote”.
Chances: very low

2. Revoke article 50
More than 4.5m people have signed an online parliamentary petition calling for an end to Brexit by revoking the UK’s notice to leave under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty which began the Brexit process in March 2017. Most MPs, however, are unlikely to want to vote to revoke now.
Chances: low

3. Second referendum
A “People’s Vote” march in central London yesterday indicated there is strong public support for a second vote on the basis that promises made for Brexit will not be delivered. But a Commons vote recently ended with a big defeat, 334 votes to 85. Labour MPs abstained and a majority of MPs across all parties voted against it.
Chances: better than they were but still unlikely

4. A deal plus customs union membership
Theresa May’s withdrawal deal would be supported if it had a clear path to the UK remaining in a customs union with the EU. Although that is Labour’s position, it may not want to provide solace to May by backing her deal.
Chances: fair. Could tap into the softer Brexit majority in the Commons

5. Common Market 2.0
Parliament could vote to keep the UK in the single market — the Norway option — and in a customs union. This would preserve many economic benefits of EU membership, while still leaving. Opponents say the UK would be under more EU control than as a member and also have to accept the free movement of people.
Chances: good

6. Canada
Tory Eurosceptics favour looser ties with the EU, similar to Canada’s free trade agreement. But getting there would first require backing the withdrawal agreement.
Chances: low

7. No deal
Favoured by some hard Brexiteers but already defeated by MPs — 321 votes to 278. In a free vote it would fail by more.
Chances: very low

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/what-next-the-pms-unpalatable-brexit-options-pq5cqb5df

5 is still a second rate option compared to full membership and will also upset a lot of leave voters, they will claim betrayal

Prefer 1 combinated with 3. A ratification of May's deal is a better solution with the option to remain. That would be more democratic

2 is a last resort but should be used to save country is if we to the cliff edge.

 

[nicko31]

The 2016 was essentially a violation of human rights on multiple counts...

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/01/30/the-brexit-referendum-was-a-violation-of-human-rights/

 

[Lincoln Imp]

In 2010 membership of the EU wasn't central to the election campaign but you know this ...

Oh I see. General elections are a reliable guide to people's views on a particular matter only when the view in question coincides with ones own. Classic JCPasta.

 

[Mellotron]

Philip Hammond has just stated that 2nd ref is a “perfectly coherent position” that “deserves consideration”. With May potentially on the way out, we just might be seeing a change of plan. A change of direction.

 

[Baldseagull]

it is shirking responsibilty because parliament voted to proceed with brexit, with a massive 400+ majority, remember? and in that legislation is required that parliament approve the deal. and so they should, either accept the deal presented by PM and EU, or reject it and revoke article 50. not go and seek confirmation of the public, so that MPs can say "we didnt decide" to what ever outcome and pass off that excuse to which ever part of the constituent is pissed at the outcome.

I did state that only a version or versions of Brexit that Parliament had approved should be put to us, even if there were no approval for remain in Parliament and there were only leave options, they should be put to us if there is significant difference between them, such as a version that gives us freedom of movement and one that does not, that is a rather big right we currently have as UK citizens.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It would be somewhat ironic if the Leave voters best hope of leaving ends up being a second referendum as a result of Leave MPs voting against TM's leave deal