[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

I think you two are both overstating the importance of what brexit actually is. 52% - 48%. Not all of the 52% would have voted for a 'hard' brexit like you 2 did. Even if a modest 10% only voted leave for sovereignty reasons but happy to remain in the single market, then 58% of the electorate would supposedly be happier with a soft brexit.

You both seem to believe the referendum was far more detailed than what the question was asked of us, do we leave or remain. No other detail, no other proposal of what that meant. None of us voted on the type of deal, what that would be, hard, soft, it is all up for grabs, the only decision is to leave the EU. There is no betrayal of the referendum result if we leave, even if the softest possible deal looking like we are almost in it, but just out, we are still out, the referendum is still fulfilled. If you are not happy, you can join the min 48% that won't be happy either. In fact, this referendum was never going to have a majority of people happy.

As with all referendums, it leaves our political system in turmoil, creating only division. This is proving to be the case. There will be no majority happy with the type of brexit, whether hard, soft, in between, stay in, there will not be majority consensus, it simply won't happen.

the two main parties are now " hard" brexit according to the definition of "hard" by the remainers
no more membership of the single market or customs union but seek to have their benefits, freedom of movement finished as is primacy of ECJ as laws flow back to Westminster or beyond.
82 % of voters voted for parties advocating so called " hard brexit"

Its over chap......remaining in The EU and overturning the referendum vote is now officially finished and dead.
You have run out of supporters

 

[beorhthelm]

I think you two are both overstating the importance of what brexit actually is. 52% - 48%. Not all of the 52% would have voted for a 'hard' brexit like you 2 did. Even if a modest 10% only voted leave for sovereignty reasons but happy to remain in the single market, then 58% of the electorate would supposedly be happier with a soft brexit.

You both seem to believe the referendum was far more detailed than what the question was asked of us, do we leave or remain. No other detail, no other proposal of what that meant. None of us voted on the type of deal, what that would be, hard, soft, it is all up for grabs, the only decision is to leave the EU. There is no betrayal of the referendum result if we leave, even if the softest possible deal looking like we are almost in it, but just out, we are still out, the referendum is still fulfilled. If you are not happy, you can join the min 48% that won't be happy either. In fact, this referendum was never going to have a majority of people happy.

As with all referendums, it leaves our political system in turmoil, creating only division. This is proving to be the case. There will be no majority happy with the type of brexit, whether hard, soft, in between, stay in, there will not be majority consensus, it simply won't happen.

i dont know why you keep on this angle, the remain campaign was very clear about what we'd be leaving. in fact, they spent rather more time on that then telling us why we should stay.

i always wonder how many remainers voted further federalisation, EU Foreign policy and army, joining the euro and centralised fiscal policy, all matters on the agenda in Brussels for the coming decade. do you support all these issues, or did you just support the single market and believe it comes with no further costs?

 

[Bold Seagull]

i dont know why you keep on this angle, the remain campaign was very clear about what we'd be leaving. in fact, they spent rather more time on that then telling us why we should stay.

i always wonder how many remainers voted further federalisation, EU Foreign policy and army, joining the euro and centralised fiscal policy, all matters on the agenda in Brussels for the coming decade. do you support all these issues, or did you just support the single market and believe it comes with no further costs?

The campaigns were not a manifesto of promises, there was no organised party of Remain, or Leave, or consensus, it was just groups of people campaigning for what they thought each thing meant. NONE of what was said in those campaigns means diddly squat because none of them were promises. The only thing you or I voted on was to leave or to remain. There was nothing clear about either campaign, mostly clouded in fear mongering and lies from both sides. Hence my point about referendums.

I am merely countering your points about 'this will not be what I voted for'. You didn't vote for anything but Leave. That is all. How Leave manifests itself no one has voted on, because we leave that to our parliamentary democracy.

 

[Bold Seagull]

the two main parties are now " hard" brexit according to the definition of "hard" by the remainers
no more membership of the single market or customs union but seek to have their benefits, freedom of movement finished as is primacy of ECJ as laws flow back to Westminster or beyond.
82 % of voters voted for parties advocating so called " hard brexit"

Its over chap......remaining in The EU and overturning the referendum vote is now officially finished and dead.
You have run out of supporters

I don't even know how you managed to turn that post into something about overturning the referendum...

I think you're probably alone politically if you believe Labour's and the Tories manifestos were both similar on brexit. That is a huge leap to suggest the vote share is advocacy of a hard brexit.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Utter utter bollocks. I voted leave and I want 'hard' exit - i.e. complete and utter exit. I voted Labour this GE because the national parties BOTH Labour and Tory were so awful and the local sitting MP was so good. I still want a proper exit and if the Tories back down ( as is being suggested in the Telegraph today ) my vote next time will immediately revert to UKIP. We've been betrayed since the early 70's around the truth of the EEC / EU ( something Heath admitted ). If the Tories betray the referendum result then they deserve to never govern again.

The remainers should stop assuming that the result of the GE was leavers changing their minds on leaving ..... it wasn't and the assumption makes them look a bit stupid.

Well if you say the results of last week's election didn't suggest a softening of attitude towards a hard Brexit, fine. Obviously Theresa May and the Conservative Party disagree with you, as witnessed by the Telegraph headline you describe (most other papers had similar) and by many of the appointments made by the blessed leader in the last few days. You'd better explain to Ruth Davidson that either she or her opinions don't exist.

As I said, echoes.

And if you were around for the first referendum you will recall that one of the subjects that was discussed endlessly (to the point of dominating the debate, according to the Daily Telegraph) was the concept of 'shared sovereignty'. If some lies did help take us into the EU they were far fewer than those that took us out.

 

[beorhthelm]

I am merely countering your points about 'this will not be what I voted for'. You didn't vote for anything but Leave. That is all. How Leave manifests itself no one has voted on, because we leave that to our parliamentary democracy.

and i'm merely countering your points. you didnt vote for anything other than Remain. how Remain manifests itself wasn't voted on either.

 

[5ways]

Wiliam Hague talking a lot of sense today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-government-unless-recognises-everything-has/

n the worst-case scenario, we end up with a poor Brexit deal rejected in parliament but with no alternative available, presided over by ministers suffering mounting public and business dissatisfaction, leading to the election of a Labour government led, in effect, by Marxists.

Faced with such dangers, sitting tight is not an option. Napoleon’s maxim that “the side that stays within its fortifications is beaten” applies fully to this situation. Breaking out of these problems will require a change both of style and substance, treating last week’s terrible outcome as an opportunity and a duty to tackle intractable issues in new ways.

Change the emphasis given to the UK’s objectives, with a clear indication that economic growth will have priority over controlling the number of people entering the country for work. This would show a readiness to accommodate the views of Scottish Conservatives, business organisations and, to some degree, opposition parties, within certain parameters.

We can negotiate the “bold and ambitious free trade agreement” that the British people would like to see if we take a pragmatic approach to how we use the control we will have won back.

There are various ways of doing this. One of them – put forward in this column before – is to bring in work permits for workers from the EU but agree to grant them to anyone who gets a job in Britain, unless they have a criminal record, or extremist connections. They would not receive any support if out of work, and the same rights would have to apply to British citizens throughout the EU. This approach, just one significant step short of free movement, would set the stage for a promising trade negotiation, and avoid damaging our own industries relying on European workers, from banking to fruit picking.

via https://www.theguardian.com/politic...orbyn-shadow-cabinet-may-macron-politics-live

 

[nicko31]

I can see a raft of high profile Brexiteer MP'S drifting away from Labour and Conservatives if Brexit involves free movement and/or legislative primacy with ECJ .... that then could see UKIP or another new party, maybe with some heavy hitters at the helm, taking to the polls.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Didn't think I could ever vote Tory again, but if they got rid of the redneck Redwood and that other pompous idiot from North Somerset it could happen

 

[Bold Seagull]

and i'm merely countering your points. you didnt vote for anything other than Remain. how Remain manifests itself wasn't voted on either.

You weren't countering my points, you missed the point, then asked me a question in return. You are agreeing with me with what you are saying above.

Had Remain won, exactly as my argument was saying and as you are pointing out, there was no detail on what remain would be either, how it should go on to be in the future, whether further political integration, or whether we should have been resisting / reducing or whatever. That is why referendums in truth are political and democratic own goals. You vote on a single question which everyone has different ideas on, then after that question has managed to divide all our political parties as well as the electorate, we expect Parliament to sort it out and deliver what we all wanted, only no one told us what that was.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Inflation running at 2.9%

[tweet]874558982198878208[/tweet]

 

[vegster]

Inflation running at 2.9%

[tweet]874558982198878208[/tweet]

Nothing to do with the decline in the value of the Pound since the Brexit vote. .... Of course.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Nothing to do with the decline in the value of the Pound since the Brexit vote. .... Of course.

...to which you must add the fact that in any case the decline in the value of the pound since the Brexit vote had nothing to do with Brexit... apparently it was going to plummet anyway. Any connection with June 23 was purely coincidental.

 

[vegster]

...to which you must add the fact that in any case the decline in the value of the pound since the Brexit vote had nothing to do with Brexit... apparently it was going to plummet anyway. Any connection with June 23 was purely coincidental.

But surely inflation cannot have been caused by Mrs May's government of the strong, vibrant economy we have?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

the two main parties are now " hard" brexit according to the definition of "hard" by the remainers
no more membership of the single market or customs union but seek to have their benefits, freedom of movement finished as is primacy of ECJ as laws flow back to Westminster or beyond.
82 % of voters voted for parties advocating so called " hard brexit"

Its over chap......remaining in The EU and overturning the referendum vote is now officially finished and dead.
You have run out of supporters

But, the reality is that the government, with their fragile majority, will not be able to get a hard Brexit through parliament now.

Stop moaning? Get over it you've lost?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Inflation running at 2.9%

[tweet]874558982198878208[/tweet]

I'm financially better off w.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm financially better off w.

Have you been to the shops?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

But, the reality is that the government, with their fragile majority, will not be able to get a hard Brexit through parliament now.

Stop moaning? Get over it you've lost?

What I can't understand is why, if almost everyone who voted Leave wanted a hard/proper/fullyerect Brexit (as the ultras on here claim) the government is now having to back away from providing just that.

 

[East Preston Gull]

You weren't countering my points, you missed the point, then asked me a question in return. You are agreeing with me with what you are saying above.

Had Remain won, exactly as my argument was saying and as you are pointing out, there was no detail on what remain would be either, how it should go on to be in the future, whether further political integration, or whether we should have been resisting / reducing or whatever. That is why referendums in truth are political and democratic own goals. You vote on a single question which everyone has different ideas on, then after that question has managed to divide all our political parties as well as the electorate, we expect Parliament to sort it out and deliver what we all wanted, only no one told us what that was.

I think had remain won, the EU would have taken that as a green light to shackle us in full stop.

It was effectively a vote to leave or join. Remain was as cunning as the new fraud buzzword, soft or hard Brexit.

I voted leave because I wanted out of the EU and assumed that would mean leaving the trade bloc and the growth killer that is the customs union.

I am sure I am starting to repeat myself again

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

[larus]

I think had remain won, the EU would have taken that as a green light to shackle us in full stop.

It was effectively a vote to leave or join. Remain was as cunning as the new fraud buzzword, soft or hard Brexit.

I voted leave because I wanted out of the EU and assumed that would mean leaving the trade bloc and the growth killer that is the customs union.

I am sure I am starting to repeat myself again��

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Thing is, lots of people use the terms Hard-Brexit/Soft-Brexit, yet the definitions are far from clear. The only reason I know this is I wasn't really sure what the terms covered, and after doing further reading, it appears that there is some ambiguity over it.

Labour say they want a Soft-Brexit, but this covers leaving the single market. However, they don't want to drop Human Rights laws, not tariff-free access to the single market. They also seem to accept the 4 key principles of the free movement.

I believe that there are also some rules which restrict what other trade agreements can be entered into if we have tariff-free single-market access.

So, genuine question, what powers/controls do people think we will repatriate if we adopt the 'Soft-Brexit' approach?

For clarification (in case someone says, "what do you think you were voting for?"), I was voting for control of immigration, not paying into the EU budget, not being under the European Courts and the ability to have our own free trade agreements. I was expecting a sensible trade agreement to be reached (after all of the chest-puffing on both sides subsided).

 

[pastafarian]

But, the reality is that the government, with their fragile majority, will not be able to get a hard Brexit through parliament now.

Stop moaning? Get over it you've lost?

Apparently no longer being members of the single market is “hard “ brexit. With Jeremy and the Tories now singing from the same hymn sheet and advocating just that by seeking new arrangements as non members of it, i cant see there being too much bother voting that through at all, fragile majority or not.