[Politics] Brexit

[Bold Seagull]

There is not a 'craving for a zero knowledge society.' We need experts to give us raw data, an opinion or anything that will help. Where the Remain camp have departed from the past in this debate is the assertion that we have to believe these experts rather than listen and make up our own minds. 'Experts' in the past told us that the world was flat ! These were the best scientists of the time. Sometimes the experts get it wrong and my saying that does not mean I think we should completely disregard their research.

Ha ha ha, this has to be fishing! Please tell me you were joking!

 

[sten_super]

There is not a 'craving for a zero knowledge society.' We need experts to give us raw data, an opinion or anything that will help. Where the Remain camp have departed from the past in this debate is the assertion that we have to believe these experts rather than listen and make up our own minds. 'Experts' in the past told us that the world was flat ! These were the best scientists of the time. Sometimes the experts get it wrong and my saying that does not mean I think we should completely disregard their research.

The population engaging in 'critical thinking' is great, and is precisely what we should want - an informed populace making decisions based on evidence. I don't think that's what we've had in this referendum. I think you might be right that Remain have placed too much stock in 'experts', in the sense that they've focussed on the narrow fields covered by these experts and not engaged some of the wider arguments (e.g. around a sense of 'belonging' and culture, rather than the economic impact of migrants). However the Leave campaign have been equally guilty of shoving their fingers in their ears every time a credible expert opinion is wheeled out. The dismissal of the IMF, Bank of England, the vast majority of academic and business economists, etc. as being "part of the establishment", and therefore not worth listening to, is a great example of this. Challenge the assumptions, challenge the method, ask why things have been done a certain way, great, but don't simply dismiss it as the work of shills because it doesn't fit the argument that you want to make.

Yours gratefully,

An EU stooge

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Ha ha ha, this has to be fishing! Please tell me you were joking!

no, I am not joking. Do you not see my point ? I could have used many other examples if you prefer eg experts on nutrition whose research is not taken on board and subsequently new research vindicates that decision. If you agree with the experts that's great. Others don't and it doesn't mean they do not believe in the concept of becoming an authority on a subject. If you want to leave it to the experts then lets just dispense with democracy altogether. If you remember, Tony Blair's 'experts' told us that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Is it that you believe in the Remain experts but not the weapons experts ? How can I work out which ones to believe in so that I am in step with the conventional wisdom ?

 

[Two Professors]

Precisely no-one is doing that on the remain side. Leave doesn't have a monopoly on pride, just nationalism.

So nobody on this thread has said that peace in Europe for the last 70 years is down to the EU,ignoring NATO's contribution;nobody on this thread has said working in other European countries only happened since the EU;nobody on this thread has said scientific advancement is all down to the EU;nobody on this thread has said holidays for workers only exist because of the EU;can't be bothered to think of more examples of how Remain re-write history-I'm off to play footy with my grandson-priorities!

 

[Bold Seagull]

no, I am not joking. Do you not see my point ? I could have used many other examples if you prefer eg experts on nutrition whose research is not taken on board and subsequently new research vindicates that decision. If you agree with the experts that's great. Others don't and it doesn't mean they do not believe in the concept of becoming an authority on a subject. If you want to leave it to the experts then lets just dispense with democracy altogether. If you remember, Tony Blair's 'experts' told us that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Is it that you believe in the Remain experts but not the weapons experts ? How can I work out which ones to believe in so that I am in step with the conventional wisdom ?

Specifically about your analogy of the Earth being flat, they weren't experts or scientists, you're talking about religion, about 'belief'. The Earth was thought to be flat not because of scientific observation of the time, but the same reason that the Greeks thought lightning was Zeus getting angry! Only when we started scientific observations did 'scientists' suggest the Earth was flat, and some of the were considered heretics!

And Blair's experts supposedly told us Iraq HAD womds not a forecast that he was going to have them - again a completely different analogy.

 

[pb21]

So nobody on this thread has said that peace in Europe for the last 70 years is down to the EU,ignoring NATO's contribution;nobody on this thread has said working in other European countries only happened since the EU;nobody on this thread has said scientific advancement is all down to the EU;nobody on this thread has said holidays for workers only exist because of the EU;can't be bothered to think of more examples of how Remain re-write history-I'm off to play footy with my grandson-priorities!

I don't think anyone has said any of the things you have mentioned, in those stark black and white terms.

The EU has helped facilitated many of those things though, and we are all better off for that.

Its not black and white, like you are saying other people are saying.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The population engaging in 'critical thinking' is great, and is precisely what we should want - an informed populace making decisions based on evidence. I don't think that's what we've had in this referendum. I think you might be right that Remain have placed too much stock in 'experts', in the sense that they've focussed on the narrow fields covered by these experts and not engaged some of the wider arguments (e.g. around a sense of 'belonging' and culture, rather than the economic impact of migrants). However the Leave campaign have been equally guilty of shoving their fingers in their ears every time a credible expert opinion is wheeled out. The dismissal of the IMF, Bank of England, the vast majority of academic and business economists, etc. as being "part of the establishment", and therefore not worth listening to, is a great example of this. Challenge the assumptions, challenge the method, ask why things have been done a certain way, great, but don't simply dismiss it as the work of shills because it doesn't fit the argument that you want to make.

Yours gratefully,

An EU stooge

decent point but I am not voting Leave for the same reasons as the official Leave campaign. They may dismiss the experts whereas I have listened but concluded that, as you say, the 'experts' have not quantified the issues that are important to me. I actually agree with the Remainers on here that the Leave campaign has been shambolic and simplistic but I just don't think it matters as I am perfectly capable of processing the issues and making up my own mind despite rather than because of Messrs Cameron, Osbourne, Gove and Johnson.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Specifically about your analogy of the Earth being flat, they weren't experts or scientists, you're talking about religion, about 'belief'. The Earth was thought to be flat not because of scientific observation of the time, but the same reason that the Greeks thought lightning was Zeus getting angry! Only when we started scientific observations did 'scientists' suggest the Earth was flat, and some of the were considered heretics!

And Blair's experts supposedly told us Iraq HAD womds not a forecast that he was going to have them - again a completely different analogy.

well, I was really just trying to illustrate my point that we all listen to experts then make up our own minds. The experts may not be factoring in what is most important to us. For me that is low wages/high rents caused by an excess supply of labour. The experts think this is a good thing as it increases company profits. I disagree that it is a good thing and I don't think that makes me irrational.

 

[kevo]

If you only watch one video on the EU, please watch this from a true subject matter expert.

One of the UK’s leading EU law experts criticizes the referendum debate’s “dishonesty on an industrial scale”, as he considers the claims and counter claims from each side

 

[Bold Seagull]

well, I was really just trying to illustrate my point that we all listen to experts then make up our own minds. The experts may not be factoring in what is most important to us. For me that is low wages/high rents caused by an excess supply of labour. The experts think this is a good thing as it increases company profits. I disagree that it is a good thing and I don't think that makes me irrational.

I know what you were trying to do, but you were using an example that suggested you can never listen to experts because they are sometimes wrong. Yeah, they are sometimes, but in general it is probably best to listen to experts that agree en masse rather than not.

 

[Soulman]

Simon Boyd, Managing Director of REIDSteel, gives his view on the direction the UK should take on 23 June.

"The future for our company and the future for the staff that work for our company, is the world market. And we need to get out of these cumbersome and badly thought out regulations and directives.

We need to free ourselves from the shackles of the European Union and be allowed to agree our own trade deals with other countries around the world."

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I know what you were trying to do, but you were using an example that suggested you can never listen to experts because they are sometimes wrong. Yeah, they are sometimes, but in general it is probably best to listen to experts that agree en masse rather than not.

you misinterpreted my post. The examples I used were to illustrate that the conventional wisdom can turn out to be wrong sometimes. Experts in medicine have made incorrect conclusions. Experts on homosexuality in the past told us it was some sort of mental illness. I have not said that we should never listen to experts. I am saying that sometimes the consensus opinion of experts is wrong and it is not irrational for me to make up my own mind. You can do the same and vote a different way.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Simon Boyd, Managing Director of REIDSteel, gives his view on the direction the UK should take on 23 June.

"The future for our company and the future for the staff that work for our company, is the world market. And we need to get out of these cumbersome and badly thought out regulations and directives.

We need to free ourselves from the shackles of the European Union and be allowed to agree our own trade deals with other countries around the world."

Yes, but interestingly, it was the EU that wanted to use it's trade power to raise tariffs on Chinese imported steel protecting European steel interests. Which country blocked the raising of tarriffs on Chinese imported steel - the UK.

 

[Soulman]

Yes, but interestingly, it was the EU that wanted to use it's trade power to raise tariffs on Chinese imported steel protecting European steel interests. Which country blocked the raising of tarriffs on Chinese imported steel - the UK.

Yes. Hopefully though with Cameron supporting Remain, if we vote out then Cameron will be gone, someone in place that supported Brexit and will negotiate our own tariffs.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Yes. Hopefully though with Cameron supporting Remain, if we vote out then Cameron will be gone, someone in place that supported Brexit and will negotiate our own tariffs.

Yeah but Boris!?

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[Bold Seagull]

Yes. Hopefully though with Cameron supporting Remain, if we vote out then Cameron will be gone, someone in place that supported Brexit and will negotiate our own tariffs.

Yes, our huge trading power on our own against the Chinese is going to have such a great bearing compared to the EU as a whole. I'm sure the Chinese will be quaking in their boots when we tell them what we're doing to their tariffs, or rather with our dependence on Chinese importing, they tell us what the tariffs will be. So much more power for us.

 

[cunning fergus]

Bit hypothetical, you're lapping up all the lies from the other side.

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No I'm not, I challenging the assertions of the remain side that the establishment, be they scientific, domestic/international political, charities, civil service, bankers, arts, retailers, industrialists, constructors, legal, unions etc. are advocating we leave.

What do you think........are the establishment are behind remain or leave?

 

[Wrong-Direction]

No I'm not, I challenging the assertions of the remain side that the establishment, be they scientific, domestic/international political, charities, civil service, bankers, arts, retailers, industrialists, constructors, legal, unions etc. are advocating we leave.

What do you think........are the establishment are behind remain or leave?

I believe everyone has their own motives, none of them benefit my generation

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[cunning fergus]

Maybe, but its the establishment figures who will benefit the most at the expense of everyone else if we stay or leave. Don't fool yourself otherwise. It will take a lot more than voting out of the EU to even get a swipe at the establishment, let alone give it a bloody nose.

If the outcome of this referendum didn't matter to the establishment they are doing an amazing job of making it look like they do?

Are you honestly suggesting that they don't care?

This is just more deflection, you are trying to equalise the very clear motives of the rich and powerful to threaten the poor and powerless to vote the way they want.

You know this isn't true, you should be far more confident than this.........don't be shy, wear your Tory credentials with pride, roll out more "expert" opinion from Goldman Sachs.

Broadly speaking those who are lining up to remain are the working class, because quite simply they have f@ck all to loose, and their lives MAY be better by out.

You don't need to believe me on this, you need to listen to labour MPs in despair that their core vote is not voting remain. It's why figures like Tom Watson are talking about reforming freedom of movement.

But it's too little too late...............they know it.

For the party of the working class they are mostly an utter disgrace.

 

[cunning fergus]

As it outlines in the report immigrants coming in to the country actually affect both the supply and demand sides of the labour market. The number of jobs is not fixed and since immigrants consume local services and goods, this increases demand and raises the prospects of those who produce the goods and services. This is the likely main reason why the empirical evidence shows that immigration has not had a detrimental affect on either unemployment levels or wages.

The UK does not have a free labour market and in my personal case I do wonder if the impact to British born workers may have been more pronounced had we not had the National Minimum/ Living Wage in place.

In terms of your last point about why low paid workers are not rallying around the remain campaign (if this is the case). We have been through the worst recession in a generation followed by years of austerity which has served the ideological purposes of our current government and decimated public services. Unfortunately other groups have been able to seize upon the general discontent of the population to whip up a frenzy around the issue of immigration. One particular political party and several elements of the media blames every one of Britain's current flaws on immigration and foreigners and its surprising therefore that people have brought in to this.

Unfortunately there is a historical pattern repeated time and time again all over the world of foreigners and minority groups being used as scapegoats any time there is a sustained period of economic hardship. Look at the success of trump in the US for example.

What on earth are you going on about?

EU freedom of movement means EU citizens can move around the EU and work where they want, ergo the UK exercises no control on labour from the EU. In the context of being a member of the EU this means it is a free labour market.

An EU wide free labour market is a Tory wet dream because it evidently benefits employers who have access to a largely limitless pool of labour. There is no jam for the workers, they will just have to accept lower conditions and protections.

For those of us of a certain age zero and political persuasion zero hour contracts and minimum wage jobs are an anathema. It was not this way previously, this new dawn is a relatively new development for British workers.

You may want to believe that working class discontent with the status quo is really about prejudice and bigotry, but that is more arrogance on a par with sentiments such as British workers are lazy, a charge that would draw a sharp intake of breath if such generalisations were applied to other nationalities.

As I have highlighted its Labour MPs who are for remain now lining up to highlight their concerns about the EUs commitment to freedom of movement.........but you know best don't you Tory boy.