[Politics] Brexit

[Lincoln Imp]

There are different points here, and not all relating to Brexit. Taking a couple.

The direction of the EU in recent years, and particularly since the Lisbon Treaty has been entirely without consent of the EU doctorate at large, when referendums were held on the constitution they were rejected in France and Holland. Had there been more consent from the EU and leaders of national governments on the EU and it's direction of travel I doubt it would have eve have come to this. It has though and it's not the fault of the electorate. It was the older cohorts that rejected the EU in the Brexit vote, most of who would have voted to join in 1975..........the EU in 2016 was not what they voted for.

In the last 4 weeks I have been to Germany, Spain and France. My anecdotal experience from those that asked me how I voted was bar one young frenchie in Paris was they supported Brexit. In Germany I was shaken by the hand twice by strangers on Brexit and they never asked how voted. Not very scientific I know but there was no malice as it should be.

The rise in extremism in my view is overblown, the Polish ambassador was in Harlow for a murder which has not yet had a motive established, it may be hate crime it may be like Gary Newlove, I think the media are feeding a narrative which is not accurate.

That is not to ignore the fact that there are more Polish nationals in UK prisons than any other nation, including murderers and rapists so let's not assume that British people are unaffected by hate crime or just good old fashioned violence.

The British victims of polish and the thousands of other foreign prisoners in UK jails will just as equally say that this is not the England that I love..........

With respect that was a perfectly rousing speech but an absolutely terrible response. If you feel that the simple points I made were rubbish then better to dismantle them than ignore them.

 

[BigGully]

Honestly, the lack of research the leave voters display on this subject is truly, truly depressing. This is from one google search. It ain't that hard!

http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2832

Look however you wrap this up we are net contributors, it seems a little mad to somehow give the EU credit for giving back some of our money to fund any initiatives they see fit and then use it as some kind of negative to Brexit, the EU really doesnt have a Euro money tree, its just swirling around money throughout the region, net contributors are net contributors however you care to look at it.

 

[The Clamp]

Look however you wrap this up we are net contributors, it seems a little mad to somehow give the EU credit for giving back some of our money to fund any initiatives they see fit and then use it as some kind of negative to Brexit, the EU really doesnt have a Euro money tree, its just swirling around money throughout the region, net contributors are net contributors however you care to look at it.

Ah, so you are just going to dismiss any evidence contrary to your argument by essentially saying "Look, they are just wrong, okay"

Of course we contribute. A lot. All high earning countries are obliged to. We reap the rewards massively, as demonstrated in my link.What don't you understand about wealth disparity?

We are obliged to contribute towards job creation and social initiatives because nations were not contributiing enough to their own needy before, it was one of the founding principles of the EU, precisely because governments were NOT doing enough for their own people. Why do you think they are suddenly going to start now?

 

[Simster]

I'll have a go at answering if you don't mind.

1) making our own decisions:

If we want to sell to the US we have to meet set standards as we do with numerous other nations which is why many standards are pretty universal and of course companies/businesses currently trading within the EU single market already meet the standards. Plus of course you realise that a very very small percentage of UK companies export to the EU but 100% of all UK companies have to comply with EU regulations undoubtedly adding excessive costs. So to get back to your 'making our own decisions' query ... when Brexit is finalised it is entirely feasible as many as 95% of UK companies will no longer have to comply with unnecessary burdensome EU regulations. In future it is much more likely the regulations they follow will be set by the UK government/authorities, which looks a bit like making our own decisions to me.

http://forbritain.org/britishoption.pdf

Your Tory government removing the minimum wage point or indeed a Tory government introducing a more generous living wage would be an example of our democratically elected government enacting policy ... ie the UK making it's own decisions.

2) governing ourselves:

I don't recognise your definition of nearly all and in your previous point you seemed to be suggesting staying in the EU was going to stop a government you didn't vote for enact policy you didn't like. So you tacitly admit Brexit will indeed give us more self governance.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

3) Getting back our identity

As sovereignty and nation states powers are constantly diminished as they are after every EU treaty is signed it is reasonable to say our identity is also being changed/diluted. Basically more EU = less nation states (UK) which some remainers are entirely happy with and welcome. On the immigration point it it would also be fair to say adding millions of EU citizens over a relatively short period to a country would bring change especially in those areas that had absorbed higher levels of immigration.

Hope this qualifies as a proper answer.

It does indeed, thank you.

On the first two points, I think you are right to point out how wary I am when it comes to our own government. We have an un-elected upper chamber, and a lower chamber elected using a system that means outrageous policies can be implemented by a government with minority electorate support. I feel the PR-elected MEPs offer a degree of counter balance to this. Our democracy worries me. Regardless, I'd be interested to know how you arrive at this idea that 95% of UK companies will no longer have to comply with EU directives. This suggests that all 100% already do have to comply to them, when the truth is that a substantial number of firms are probably untouched by EU directives. And regardless, any UK firm exporting to the EU WILL still have to comply with these directives, only they will no longer have a voice on how these directives are made.

You last point I fundamentally disagree with. Economically, I'd agree the EU promotes increased homogeny, but I don't see how that erodes our cultural identity whatsoever. Seriously, how does your "Britishness" vary according to EU laws on agriculture or tariffs on imported goods from China?

Cheers JC. Saves me posting similar

We can all say that, but ultimately you were given plenty of time and failed to do so, despite having plenty of time to indulge in petty squabbling. Your conduct reminds me of the chimps lining up behind the school bully. A bit feeble and very ignorant if you ask me.

 

[BigGully]

Ah, so you are just going to dismiss any evidence contrary to your argument by essentially saying "Look, they are just wrong, okay"

Of course we contribute. A lot. All high earning countries are obliged to. We reap the rewards massively, as demonstrated in my link.What don't you understand about wealth disparity?

We are obliged to contribute towards job creation and social initiatives because nations were not contributiing enough to their own needy before, it was one of the founding principles of the EU, precisely because governments were NOT doing enough for their own people. Why do you think they are suddenly going to start now?

Are you really saying £450m over 6 years from some European directive for the North East is evidence, evidence of what exactly, we paid £13 billion net last year, whilst the EU then spent £4 billion back to us.

You seem to lend the EU almost a mythical status, as if it isnt powered primarily by Germany and France and their transient politicians.

I find it astonishing that you think an evolved, sophisticated and democratic country like the UK could not find their own initiatives with appropriate funding in an effort to encourage prosperity, wherever that might be.

I think you are re-writing history if you think nation states signed up to the EEC to somehow discipline themselves to implement policies by your own logic, that they did not believe in.

 

[The Clamp]

Are you really saying £450m over 6 years from some European directive for the North East is evidence, evidence of what exactly, we paid £13 billion net last year, whilst the EU then spent £4 billion back to us.

You seem to lend the EU almost a mythical status, as if it isnt powered primarily by Germany and France and their transient politicians.

I find it astonishing that you think an evolved, sophisticated and democratic country like the UK could not find their own initiatives with appropriate funding in an effort to encourage prosperity, wherever that might be.

I think you are re-writing history if you think nation states signed up to the EEC to somehow discipline themselves to implement policies by your own logic, that they did not believe in.

I don't know how many times you need it explained to you. Do you know what wealth disparity is?

Simply put: It's when a country or region has enough money for everyone to live decently but it is distributed unevenly so some live very well and some live very shabbily with few prospects in life.

The EU, can be seen a s a whole. A union. Europe.

Some places in Europe earn a lot of money, eg The UK. Some countries or regions do not earn a lot of money. The countries that earn a lot of money pay more and that money is redistributed to the poorer areas.


This is what the EU does. People think it does a bad job of this. It does a very good job of this.



I do not believe our government will do a good job of this.


It's not mythical in my eyes, it is far from perfect and many areas need reform. If the roof on my house leaks, I don't move house. I fix it.


Last time i'm explaining my position.

 

[BigGully]

I don't know how many times you need it explained to you. Do you know what wealth disparity is?

Simply put: It's when a country or region has enough money for everyone to live decently but it is distributed unevenly so some live very well and some live very shabbily with few prospects in life.

The EU, can be seen a s a whole. A union. Europe.

Some places in Europe earn a lot of money, eg The UK. Some countries or regions do not earn a lot of money. The countries that earn a lot of money pay more and that money is redistributed to the poorer areas.


This is what the EU does. People think it does a bad job of this. It does a very good job of this.



I do not believe our government will do a good job of this.


It's not mythical in my eyes, it is far from perfect and many areas need reform. If the roof on my house leaks, I don't move house. I fix it.


Last time i'm explaining my position.

Oh righto ..........................

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

It's pretty inevitable that some remainers will be perceived (rightly or wrongly) as moaners, whingers, sore losers , unpatriotic etc if they constantly accentuate any negative news/info while studiously ignoring/dismissing the positive news.

Mind you the English are renowned for having a good old moan.

The moaning remainers are the true little Englanders. So unsure and unconfident in this great country. All they can do is whimper and whine whilst looking back to 'the good old days' ones that in fact never existed as they have a rosy tinted view of the EU and it's soon to be falling empire. It's a great pity that such fear took hold of them.

 

[Soulman]

It does indeed, thank you.

On the first two points, I think you are right to point out how wary I am when it comes to our own government. We have an un-elected upper chamber, and a lower chamber elected using a system that means outrageous policies can be implemented by a government with minority electorate support. I feel the PR-elected MEPs offer a degree of counter balance to this. Our democracy worries me. Regardless, I'd be interested to know how you arrive at this idea that 95% of UK companies will no longer have to comply with EU directives. This suggests that all 100% already do have to comply to them, when the truth is that a substantial number of firms are probably untouched by EU directives. And regardless, any UK firm exporting to the EU WILL still have to comply with these directives, only they will no longer have a voice on how these directives are made.

You last point I fundamentally disagree with. Economically, I'd agree the EU promotes increased homogeny, but I don't see how that erodes our cultural identity whatsoever. Seriously, how does your "Britishness" vary according to EU laws on agriculture or tariffs on imported goods from China?

We can all say that, but ultimately you were given plenty of time and failed to do so, despite having plenty of time to indulge in petty squabbling. Your conduct reminds me of the chimps lining up behind the school bully. A bit feeble and very ignorant if you ask me.

Seeing as you have attempted to insult me in your last couple of posts, I would suggest that you are the "chimp" and a massive chump if you think anyone need reply to your constant demands and clarification time and time again. The vote was out, man up and try to get on with it.

 

[Billy the Fish]

On the first two points, I think you are right to point out how wary I am when it comes to our own government. We have an un-elected upper chamber, and a lower chamber elected using a system that means outrageous policies can be implemented by a government with minority electorate support. I feel the PR-elected MEPs offer a degree of counter balance to this. Our democracy worries me.

The whole political structure is probably my single biggest reason for voting to leave. I too believe that our domestic structure needs a big shake up, but I can't understand how giving more and more power to the EU is the answer. The European parliament is too big and too far removed from the member states to be properly accountable, there are 750 MEPs who all belong to different voting blocs. I don't see how MEPs can be considered a counter balance when the vast majority of the population don't have a clue what they stand for or which groups they're affiliated to.

This week for instance there was a vote to propose a European border force. A quick look at the British MEP votes shows that they didn't vote on country lines, they mostly vote according to their affiliated group. Does anyone know what the following groups stand for:
The European Conservatives and Reformist Group, Europe of Nations and Freedom, Group of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats in the European Parliament, Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy group, Group of the Greens/European Free Alliance.

Where was this debate covered in the media? How do we know why the Group of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats in the European Parliament chose to vote how they did? Results can be seen here:
http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-border-and-coast-guard-draft-legislative-resolution-vote-legislative-resolution-ordinary-le.html

At least what we've got is simple enough for most to understand and keep up with, even if it is flawed. Diluting democracy throughout the whole of Europe isn't good for anyone except the political class and the corporations who can afford to influence them.

 

[Simster]

Seeing as you have attempted to insult me in your last couple of posts, I would suggest that you are the "chimp" and a massive chump if you think anyone need reply to your constant demands and clarification time and time again. The vote was out, man up and try to get on with it.

They don't. Just ONCE would do.

Ah, but you're simply reverting to doing what you always do - petty squabbling rather than debating your position. "Man up"? What you really mean is "you lost so don't challenge me because I can't cope with it"

 

[Lincoln Imp]

The moaning remainers are the true little Englanders. So unsure and unconfident in this great country. All they can do is whimper and whine whilst looking back to 'the good old days' ones that in fact never existed as they have a rosy tinted view of the EU and it's soon to be falling empire. It's a great pity that such fear took hold of them.

A question for you. Would the Outers have mutely accepted the vote if it had gone against them? Farage and the Tory right made it clear they wouldn't. No one is whimpering, no one is whining but some people are posting inaccurate, patronising, derivative and near illiterate tosh.

 

[smeg]

A question for you. Would the Outers have mutely accepted the vote if it had gone against them? Farage and the Tory right made it clear they wouldn't. No one is whimpering, no one is whining but some people are posting inaccurate, patronising, derivative and near illiterate tosh.

In fairness to NSC it's only four or five leavers who have adopted this "HaHa we won, you lost" approach and a couple cannot even articulate a response without recourse to personal insults, it's a shame because it ruins what has been an interesting debate.

 

[The Clamp]

For all the moaning about "remoaners" and telling us how much we are just a bunch of whinging losers and they can't stand listening to us, the likes of Soulman's and Green Cross sure do spend a lot of their day on this thread.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

In fairness to NSC it's only four or five leavers who have adopted this "HaHa we won, you lost" approach and a couple cannot even articulate a response without recourse to personal insults, it's a shame because it ruins what has been an interesting debate.

Yes, you're right. Most of them have gone.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I am wondering if NSC's leavers have any major concerns about the form brexit is likely to take. I always thought that while remainers were essentially voting for one thing, leavers in my experience were voting for a range of scenarios.

 

[vegster]

It just seems strange that you identify Sunderland and Newcastle in your example rather say our on local regions that voted similarly, what are Sunderland and Newcastle going to miss out on that all the other areas assume they might benefit from leaving.

Its a bit like saying, 'it will just be rubbish', without much thought.

I could have listed all the regions that voted out in alphabetical order for you but I picked Sunderland and Newcastle as being areas that have suffered most in the last 40 years with unemployment and underinvestment. I'm well aware that we voted out too but our economy is a lot more vibrant, lots of minimum wage jobs too down here. Saying " leaving the EU will be brilliant " without understanding the implications is pretty stupid.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I am wondering if NSC's leavers have any major concerns about the form brexit is likely to take. I always thought that while remainers were essentially voting for one thing, leavers in my experience were voting for a range of scenarios.

You're right! It's been mentioned before, but a BBC tv crew had a hilarious pop vox with four Leave voters in Margate before the referendum. They were asked what was leading them to their decision. Here were their answers:

1. I want an entertainer-politician as prime minister. Cameron's boring.
2. There are more fishing boats in Calais's harbour than ours.
3. (Didn't reply directly but starting singing Land of Hope and Glory)
4. There are too many muslims here already.

 

[studio150]

15 years or more before things get better

http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-to-cause-15-years-of-economic-pain-former-eu-lawyer-10569236

 

[Gwylan]

I am wondering if NSC's leavers have any major concerns about the form brexit is likely to take. I always thought that while remainers were essentially voting for one thing, leavers in my experience were voting for a range of scenarios.

I'm one of the leavers who had no problems with EU immigration and would be happy to the free movement of EU citizens to continue as before. My problem was with the EU corporate structure, its accounting processes and industrial/agricultural policy.

I'm remain convinced that what we'll end up with is broadly similar immigration and single market access policies - but there'll be a great deal of huffing and puffing along the way. I know that quite a few leavers on this thread would be pretty unhappy with that, however.