[Politics] Brexit

[JC Footy Genius]

I'd rather read a proper answer when you have time, because you haven't actually explained how Brexit is going to make any of that a reality. I think you're living in a dream world.

1) making our own decisions:

If we want to sell to the EU, we'll have to follow their guidlelines. For example, we manufacture widgets for export and decide to make them from a cheaper material that our laws dicate are not a fire hazard. The EU then decides, "sorry, they are flammable. You can't sell them to us". We then have to do as we are told.

On the flip side, Tory governments will be able to remove the minimum wage without worrying about that troublesome EU social charter nonsense.

2) governing ourselves:

We already make nearly all of our own laws:
https://fullfact.org/europe/two-thirds-uk-law-made-eu/

3) Getting back our identity

I'd be interested to know what you mean by this. I can't think of a single EU policy that has impacted our national identity. Or do you mean "kick out East European migrant workers", in which case don't be so mealy mouthed about it.

I'll have a go at answering if you don't mind.

1) making our own decisions:

If we want to sell to the US we have to meet set standards as we do with numerous other nations which is why many standards are pretty universal and of course companies/businesses currently trading within the EU single market already meet the standards. Plus of course you realise that a very very small percentage of UK companies export to the EU but 100% of all UK companies have to comply with EU regulations undoubtedly adding excessive costs. So to get back to your 'making our own decisions' query ... when Brexit is finalised it is entirely feasible as many as 95% of UK companies will no longer have to comply with unnecessary burdensome EU regulations. In future it is much more likely the regulations they follow will be set by the UK government/authorities, which looks a bit like making our own decisions to me.

http://forbritain.org/britishoption.pdf

Your Tory government removing the minimum wage point or indeed a Tory government introducing a more generous living wage would be an example of our democratically elected government enacting policy ... ie the UK making it's own decisions.

2) governing ourselves:

I don't recognise your definition of nearly all and in your previous point you seemed to be suggesting staying in the EU was going to stop a government you didn't vote for enact policy you didn't like. So you tacitly admit Brexit will indeed give us more self governance.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

3) Getting back our identity

As sovereignty and nation states powers are constantly diminished as they are after every EU treaty is signed it is reasonable to say our identity is also being changed/diluted. Basically more EU = less nation states (UK) which some remainers are entirely happy with and welcome. On the immigration point it it would also be fair to say adding millions of EU citizens over a relatively short period to a country would bring change especially in those areas that had absorbed higher levels of immigration.

Hope this qualifies as a proper answer.

 

[The Clamp]

I think Stewart Lee said about voting UKIP as a protest, which equally applies to voting Leave:

Voting for them is like staging a dirty protest in a hotel room because of poor service and then realising you've got to sleep in a shitted bed.

Oh how right you are Stewart Lee, how very right you are.

 

[vegster]

'sinks in', 'full implications', retain its benefits', doing artificially well', 'lack of other investment options', loss of markets', 'hit the buffers'.

Are you for real ?

Do you not think the markets have not already factored this in, you and your mates seem to be in denial, you cant keep shifting the goalposts upstream forecasting imminent catastrophe, waiting for that one bit of bad news that you can then associate with your minority view, give it a rest wont ya ......

Come back here in 3 years time. There will not be one bit of bad news, there will be a series as confidence collapses. There will not be a magical return to the days of Empire, there will be no magical explosion of well paid jobs and the money " Saved " from not paying our EU contributions will be siphoned off and swallowed up with no benefit to most people..wait til the people of Sunderland and Newcastle find their circumstances are no better or n possibly than worse when the vote took place.

PS. The markets took quite a shock when the vote went Brexit but they coped and adapted as they soon realised there was still money to be made as companies exposure to exchange rates and future profits produced winners and losers. They will make as much hay as they can for the next few years and hope. However, if and when major players start pulling out after Brexit...

 

[Lincoln Imp]

So glad you said it. Those i know that have voted out know / knew it would not be plain sailing.
The one thing the "Brexiteers " have realised is that the UK has not sunk, the economy is not on its knees...... and 10 weeks on the Remoaners are still whinging and whining and not excepting the democratic vote. On and on they whine on.

I know you just love your desperately overcooked 'Remoaners' word but just what is this 'whining' thing? Are you saying that if 2 per cent of the voters had gone the other way then you Brexiters would have said 'Oh all right old chap, I won't say another word'? Farage and others made it quite clear that they would argue on and on and on with the aim of getting another referendum. So what exactly is your problem with Remainers keeping the thing boiling? Bellotti accused us of whining because we wouldn't accept what the men in power wanted to do with the Albion in the 90s but we ignored him and battled on. Fighting the odds is what the English do.

 

[The Clamp]

I know you just love your desperately overcooked 'Remoaners' word but just what is this 'whining' thing? Are you saying that if 2 per cent of the voters had gone the other way then you Brexiters would have said 'Oh all right old chap, I won't say another word'? Farage and others made it quite clear that they would argue on and on and on with the aim of getting another referendum. So what exactly is your problem with Remainers keeping the thing boiling? Bellotti accused us of whining because we wouldn't accept what the men in power wanted to do with the Albion in the 90s but we ignored him and battled on. Fighting the odds is what the English do.

Great post . And accurate. We need a bit more straight talking like this on here rather than snide posts from the usual suspects.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It's pretty inevitable that some remainers will be perceived (rightly or wrongly) as moaners, whingers, sore losers , unpatriotic etc if they constantly accentuate any negative news/info while studiously ignoring/dismissing the positive news.

Mind you the English are renowned for having a good old moan.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Generally I agree, but there are plenty of moving parts in this situation and the UK's position is just one of them.

This is a point you are not making any allowance for, and it means that as the domestic political situations in EU member states change so will the attitude of the EU to the Brexit deal.

It's a undeniable fact that there is a growing insugency in many EU countries against either the EU itself or different EU policies. The migration crisis is a lightening rod for this developing political trend, and it will mean that either mainstream parties will have to adopt policies to meet that threat or, as we have seen in this country with Brexit vote they will be out. This situation is a separate point to the deep underlying economic problems within the eurozone and the need for greater integration to resolve it.

These problems and the associated political challenges will weaken the EU politically and provide an opportunity for the UK in our negotiations. The EU will not want to impose trade penalties in one of the biggest markets for its products, so there will need to be a sensible quid pro quo.

Japan is right to act in its own interests and no surprise, but until they have freedom of movement with other countries in their region so they can do one. They also know for example Honda had to lay off workers because of lack of demand for cars in Europe.........the UK on the other hand continues to have a comparitively strong car market, with a weak pound this is good news.

If the EU will not face down VW for its emission scandal, they will not want to piss them off (and other EU car manufacturers) by making exports to the 2nd biggest car market in the EU more expensive.

Nissan is going no where soon.

You are right that the situation in the EU is fluid but times of change are times of opportunity. For example, the Visegrad group of middle-European countries is about to argue for many things (particularly involving national sovereignty and local culture) that coincide with what the UK wants - if we weren't walking away we could have had great and growing influence in that part of the continent. And in other parts too - many in Scandinavia, the Netherlands and even Germany share that vision. We tossed away the opportunity to influence the way 'Europe' developed in the early 50s and now it seems we are making the same mistake now - our timing looks exactly and precisely wrong to me. As a Dutch acquaintance said to me in July, "we were all relying on you".

The British have had a few foreign policy disasters in my lifetime but this one worries me more than most, for this reason... for every person like you who argues cogently in favour of what is happening there seem to be plenty more singing to the hymnsheet prepared by the Daily Express and the UKIP extremes. The country is looking mean-spirited. You can discount the rise in violence against Remain supporters and eastern Europeans as the actions of a minority, but consider this: Our land of 64 million people has agreed to take in, every year until 2020, a quantity of war-battered Syrian refugees equivalent to Grimsby Town's home attendance. It is a tiny number. An opinion poll I read two days ago showed what the British people thought of this figure. The great majority of those questioned thought it was too many.

This isn't the England I love.

Meanwhile, offstage, Arron Banks is revving up with his plan for a rightwing equivalent to Momentum, a organisation to 'keep the Tories clean' as they progress along the holy path of Brexit. Some of the kippers on here will be delighted without how things are going. For those of centrist, liberal or leftist inclination this must be the worst of times.

 

[The Clamp]

It's pretty inevitable that some remainers will be perceived (rightly or wrongly) as moaners, whingers, sore losers , unpatriotic etc if they constantly accentuate any negative news/info while studiously ignoring/dismissing the positive news.

Mind you the English are renowned for having a good old moan.

more useful than being in the Big Brexit Ostrich Gang!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Clamp]

Rightwing UKIPers and Farage fans will be adoring all this. It's divisive, it's critical of anything that is perceived as not being "truly British", they are getting to call moderates and concerned figures "left wing remoaners", racist attacks have gone up 400% and a lot of people think this is now somehow sanctioned because a vote was held and the right just sneaked through by the skin of their teeth. It's secretly how many. many people want Britain to be and have done for some time. It just took a prejudiced moron like Farage to influence the 52%. Sad times indeed.

 

[BigGully]

Come back here in 3 years time. There will not be one bit of bad news, there will be a series as confidence collapses. There will not be a magical return to the days of Empire, there will be no magical explosion of well paid jobs and the money " Saved " from not paying our EU contributions will be siphoned off and swallowed up with no benefit to most people..wait til the people of Sunderland and Newcastle find their circumstances are no better or n possibly than worse when the vote took place.

PS. The markets took quite a shock when the vote went Brexit but they coped and adapted as they soon realised there was still money to be made as companies exposure to exchange rates and future profits produced winners and losers. They will make as much hay as they can for the next few years and hope. However, if and when major players start pulling out after Brexit...

Woah, you are tripping over yourself again !!

The people of Sunderland and Newcastle's votes are just as valid as yours, so they dont need you patronising them I am sure.

How you can even start to envisage how the markets might look in 3 years time is quite telling as I dont recall you predicting correctly how the current markets have performed in the past couple of months since Brexit so it hardly makes you our resident George Soros does it !!

You and others seem to be to be longing for some bad news, anything absolutely anything that might demonstrate that you have a view worthy of consideration, you dont so get over it.

 

[The Clamp]

Woah, you are tripping over yourself again !!

The people of Sunderland and Newcastle's votes are just as valid as yours, so they dont need you patronising them I am sure.

How you can even start to envisage how the markets might look in 3 years time is quite telling as I dont recall you predicting correctly how the current markets have performed in the past couple of months since Brexit so it hardly makes you our resident George Soros does it !!

You and others seem to be to be longing for some bad news, anything absolutely anything that might demonstrate that you have a view worthy of consideration, you dont so get over it.

I GUARANTEE you 90% of people in Sunderland and Newcastle who voted leave can't tell you how much EU funding their respective areas will lose IF brexit occurs.

 

[cunning fergus]

Come back here in 3 years time. There will not be one bit of bad news, there will be a series as confidence collapses. There will not be a magical return to the days of Empire, there will be no magical explosion of well paid jobs and the money " Saved " from not paying our EU contributions will be siphoned off and swallowed up with no benefit to most people..wait til the people of Sunderland and Newcastle find their circumstances are no better or n possibly than worse when the vote took place.

PS. The markets took quite a shock when the vote went Brexit but they coped and adapted as they soon realised there was still money to be made as companies exposure to exchange rates and future profits produced winners and losers. They will make as much hay as they can for the next few years and hope. However, if and when major players start pulling out after Brexit...

The trouble with your analysis is that you are taking a linear UK view, and not factoring in any problems for the EU as a consequence of Brexit, it's ongoing political problems with say migration and the deep structural economic weaknesses associated with the euro.

It's fair to highlight some of the likely headwinds arising from Brexit, however to ignore the difficulties that exist and in the EU now and which will arise in the near future is one eyed.

In 3 years time it's plausible given the growing dissatisfaction amongst electorates in many member states that the EU is a completely different animal, and one that has had to relinquish its goals of a pan European superstate to one entirely based on FREE trade.

On this trajectory there will be no death of the first born, no gnashing of teeth and the sky will not fall in.

No doubt some of the Cleggite pro EU zealots will still be damping their pants because we are not in the euro, but overall this re-aligned EU/UK position could be positive for all of us. I also think it's a much more likely outcome than your binary UK cataclysm contrasting against an EU economic miracle.

The EU needs the UK to thrive........we buy to much of their stuff.

 

[BigGully]

I GUARANTEE you 90% of people in Sunderland and Newcastle who voted leave can't tell you how much EU funding their respective areas will lose IF brexit occurs.

Or gain ...............................

 

[The Clamp]

Or gain ...............................

A slim possibility they may gain, still daft of them to vote without knowing what they stand to LOSE or GAIN.

My predictions have so far been correct and I predict that any money we save by leaving the EU will be siphoned off and never reach the neediest areas of the UK.

 

[vegster]

After " We are All in this Together " Dave, we now have " Brexit means Brexit " Theresa, however, neither her or her Cabinet or the Pro Exit cabal within it have any idea of how to go about it for the best. Pitiful brainstorming sessions at Chequers do not inspire confidence in any way when so many factions are pulling in different directions.

PMQ's yesterday was interesting in that we see that Mother Theresa has already descended to smug, condescending, arrogance in the best Tory party/Thatcher tradition as her default response to genuine questions that she can't answer.

 

[BigGully]

A slim possibility they may gain, still daft of them to vote without knowing what they stand to LOSE or GAIN.

My predictions have so far been correct and I predict that any money we save by leaving the EU will be siphoned off and never reach the neediest areas of the UK.

Siphoned off to where exactly, or do you mean to where the elected government might decide where it might be better spent ..... ??

 

[The Clamp]

Siphoned off to where exactly, or do you mean to where the elected government might decide where it might be better spent ..... ??

Yeah, that. We all know where UK Governments like to spend money. Duck island or a moat anyone?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

more useful than being in the Big Brexit Ostrich Gang!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good quality trolling needs a degree of subtlety or it just becomes unfunny and tedious .. hope this helps.

 

[BigGully]

Yeah, that. We all know where UK Governments like to spend money. Duck island or a moat anyone?

If you are looking for for transparency and accountability you aint gonna find it within the EU ......

 

[The Clamp]

If you are looking for for transparency and accountability you aint gonna find it within the EU ......

Actually I'm not, I'm looking for a governing body that combats wealth disparity by investing in deprived areas. The EU does this. UK governments rarely do.