[Politics] Brexit

[The Clamp]

I think the problem lies, on both sides, in that people think the people who have or are making decisions are not just wrong but are acting in bad faith. That's always going to cause turmoil. I think that's what was so attractive about a referendum, the chance to have a say. Whichever way one voted.

 

[smeg]

Yep, I really am pissed off our government cant make a law or are so lightweight and constrained by the shackles of the EU that I cant get a powerful enough vacuum cleaner, my identity really suffers because of this.

Low watt lightbulbs really gets me

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Low watt lightbulbs really gets me

I want to be able to buy a car that doesn't have those silly stoplights running along the top of the back window. My Ford Zodiac looked so STREAMLINED without them.

 

[Soulman]

I'd rather read a proper answer when you have time, because you haven't actually explained how Brexit is going to make any of that a reality. I think you're living in a dream world.

1) making our own decisions:

If we want to sell to the EU, we'll have to follow their guidlelines. For example, we manufacture widgets for export and decide to make them from a cheaper material that our laws dicate are not a fire hazard. The EU then decides, "sorry, they are flammable. You can't sell them to us". We then have to do as we are told.

On the flip side, Tory governments will be able to remove the minimum wage without worrying about that troublesome EU social charter nonsense.

2) governing ourselves:

We already make nearly all of our own laws:
https://fullfact.org/europe/two-thirds-uk-law-made-eu/

3) Getting back our identity

I'd be interested to know what you mean by this. I can't think of a single EU policy that has impacted our national identity. Or do you mean "kick out East European migrant workers", in which case don't be so mealy mouthed about it.

Again just a quick pop in. "Mealy mouthed", stop assuming and trying to put your perceived view in. I work and have worked with more Eastern Europeans than I would imagine you have. I have no problem with them, but we need controlled immigration, how many times must we keep stating this before it sinks in.

 

[Simster]

Again just a quick pop in. "Mealy mouthed", stop assuming and trying to put your perceived view in. I work and have worked with more Eastern Europeans than I would imagine you have. I have no problem with them, but we need controlled immigration, how many times must we keep stating this before it sinks in.

Can't you actually responded to the whole post when you actually have time, rather than "popping in" to deflect attention away from doing so by picking up on the two words I've apparently offended you with?

 

[GT49er]

To answer: No, I won't be taking you up on your bet. For two reasons.

One: I rarely bet and if I do I prefer it to be in good spirit without a subtext of goading.

Two: I think using REMF as a platform to play out your personal agendas and goad someone into an argumentative bet is frankly, rather distasteful.

For once (and once only!) I agree with you. This rather crass calling out people to bet does not enhance anyone's argument. Neither does shouting at them for not taking the bet.

 

[yxee]

Yep, I really am pissed off our government cant make a law or are so lightweight and constrained by the shackles of the EU that I cant get a powerful enough vacuum cleaner, my identity really suffers because of this.

Low watt lightbulbs really gets me

I want to be able to buy a car that doesn't have those silly stoplights running along the top of the back window. My Ford Zodiac looked so STREAMLINED without them.

Hate to interrupt your impromptu little post-Brexit group therapy session, but I'd just like to point out that the principle of self governance goes beyond trivial restrictions such as vacuum cleaner wattage. Look at Ireland, whose fundamental fiscal policy decisions have been overridden. Not so trivial in this case.

This may cover as a surprise but self governance is a source of national pride to some people. And these people are not necessarily your intellectual inferiors.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Low watt lightbulbs really gets me

Agreed ..... along with white gloss paint that no longer stays white for more than 5 minutes.

 

[smeg]

Agreed ..... along with white gloss paint that no longer stays white for more than 5 minutes.

Damn you Brussels

 

[The Clamp]

Hate to interrupt your impromptu little post-Brexit group therapy session, but I'd just like to point out that the principle of self governance goes beyond trivial restrictions such as vacuum cleaner wattage. Look at Ireland, whose fundamental fiscal policy decisions have been overridden. Not so trivial in this case.

This may cover as a surprise but self governance is a source of national pride to some people. And these people are not necessarily your intellectual inferiors.

PRIDE comes before a FALL.

 

[The Clamp]

For once (and once only!) I agree with you. This rather crass calling out people to bet does not enhance anyone's argument. Neither does shouting at them for not taking the bet.

I'll take that once in a lifetime comment!

 

[LlcoolJ]

For once (and once only!) I agree with you. This rather crass calling out people to bet does not enhance anyone's argument. Neither does shouting at them for not taking the bet.

Completely agree with this. It should only be done to the Palace GOONS who infest the board.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I agree. This country has changed so much, and not for the better, thankfully we are looking at a brighter future and proud of being British again.

I never thought you'd start a reply to a post of mine with those two words. Good to see.

It seems that the people who voted Remain have been far more optimistic about our country than those who were to vote Brexit. In most respects the England of today looks a better place than it was in those rose-tinted days of 60 years ago. We're better educated, better fed, more prosperous and widely-travelled. We have minds opened up to neighbouring cultures we really didn't know in the sixties. The resentful, inward-looking parochialism of the shabby postwar decades, when Britain's economy slipped further behind Europe's with every year that passed, was in retreat. In so many ways, Winston Churchill's Netherlands dreams of almost 70 years ago have spent most of my adult life coming true. My children, who love this country as much as I do, feel part of a bigger, sunnier place now. And so do I.

Of course, some things have got worse but few of these are to do with being part of the union. Jobs are less available, houses more expensive, the countryside under challenge... these things apply across most of the world democracies. Immigration has caused disruption but I know many of the towns where EU immigration has been highest and have seen and learnt that the presence of fellow European workers has generally created much less difficulty than tabloid readers in other parts of the country might imagine. Mainland Europeans come here, our children go there. There have been exceptions but we all rub along generally.

All this seems so different to the going-to-the-dogs negativism that has seemed to drive so many on the other side of the fence. To them the place has been going downhill for decades, faster than Eddie the Eagle ever could, and it's mainly Europe's fault. David Davis is their beacon for the future, Nigel their preacherman. Good luck to my fellow citizens, but I feel they may have misjudged things.

 

[smeg]

I never thought you'd start a reply to a post of mine with those two words. Good to see.

It seems that the people who voted Remain have been far more optimistic about our country than those who were to vote Brexit. In most respects the England of today looks a better place than it was in those rose-tinted days of 60 years ago. We're better educated, better fed, more prosperous and widely-travelled. We have minds opened up to neighbouring cultures we really didn't know in the sixties. The resentful, inward-looking parochialism of the shabby postwar decades, when Britain's economy slipped further behind Europe's with every year that passed, was in retreat. In so many ways, Winston Churchill's Netherlands dreams of almost 70 years ago have spent most of my adult life coming true. My children, who love this country as much as I do, feel part of a bigger, sunnier place now. And so do I.

Of course, some things have got worse but few of these are to do with being part of the union. Jobs are less available, houses more expensive, the countryside under challenge... these things apply across most of the world democracies. Immigration has caused disruption but I know many of the towns where EU immigration has been highest and have seen and learnt that the presence of fellow European workers has generally created much less difficulty than tabloid readers in other parts of the country might imagine. Mainland Europeans come here, our children go there. There have been exceptions but we all rub along generally.

All this seems so different to the going-to-the-dogs negativism that has seemed to drive so many on the other side of the fence. To them the place has been going downhill for decades, faster than Eddie the Eagle ever could, and it's mainly Europe's fault. David Davis is their beacon for the future, Nigel their preacherman. Good luck to my fellow citizens, but I feel they may have misjudged things.

Well said

 

[nicko31]

I never thought you'd start a reply to a post of mine with those two words. Good to see.

It seems that the people who voted Remain have been far more optimistic about our country than those who were to vote Brexit. In most respects the England of today looks a better place than it was in those rose-tinted days of 60 years ago. We're better educated, better fed, more prosperous and widely-travelled. We have minds opened up to neighbouring cultures we really didn't know in the sixties. The resentful, inward-looking parochialism of the shabby postwar decades, when Britain's economy slipped further behind Europe's with every year that passed, was in retreat. In so many ways, Winston Churchill's Netherlands dreams of almost 70 years ago have spent most of my adult life coming true. My children, who love this country as much as I do, feel part of a bigger, sunnier place now. And so do I.

Of course, some things have got worse but few of these are to do with being part of the union. Jobs are less available, houses more expensive, the countryside under challenge... these things apply across most of the world democracies. Immigration has caused disruption but I know many of the towns where EU immigration has been highest and have seen and learnt that the presence of fellow European workers has generally created much less difficulty than tabloid readers in other parts of the country might imagine. Mainland Europeans come here, our children go there. There have been exceptions but we all rub along generally.

All this seems so different to the going-to-the-dogs negativism that has seemed to drive so many on the other side of the fence. To them the place has been going downhill for decades, faster than Eddie the Eagle ever could, and it's mainly Europe's fault. David Davis is their beacon for the future, Nigel their preacherman. Good luck to my fellow citizens, but I feel they may have misjudged things.

Indeed, Many brexiters are looking the retiurn to some kind of false nostalgia that nevet existed, the utopia they are looking for does not exist in the developed world

If anyone comes up with a nation state where they will feel at home please let them know

 

[portslade seagull]

Apologies, been busy.
To answer: No, I won't be taking you up on your bet. For two reasons.

One: I rarely bet and if I do I prefer it to be in good spirit without a subtext of goading.

Two: I think using REMF as a platform to play out your personal agendas and goad someone into an argumentative bet is frankly, rather distasteful.

But thank you.

Sorry but most of the baiting has come from yourself. Can understand why the bet request was made. Sadly you have started up again.

 

[pastafarian]

Second ref only a few months away. My words? Mark 'em son. It's happening! Wayoooo!!

A new referendum in a few months? Quite comical.

Do you know how many months it would take for a New Reforendum Act to pass from first reading to actual implementation, even if agreed on?
But that aside have you heard the Tory Government mention they will be putting forward a new Act and a new vote....have you(in actual reality)?

It seems on Planet Clamp this has happened i suppose, but if you are hearing things now and along with your usual need to simply invent brexit matters in your head i would give your head a wobble and see if anything rattles back into place.

 

[Soulman]

A new referendum in a few months? Quite comical.

Do you know how many months it would take for a New Reforendum Act to pass from first reading to actual implementation, even if agreed on?
But that aside have you heard the Tory Government mention they will be putting forward a new Act and a new vote....have you(in actual reality)?

It seems on Planet Clamp this has happened i suppose, but if you are hearing things now and along with your usual need to simply invent brexit matters in your head i would give your head a wobble and see if anything rattles back into place.

Don't forget, this was the chap that was going to emigrate if the Cons won the GE, then he was going traveling........i think we know what a few months really mean.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Indeed, Many brexiters are looking the retiurn to some kind of false nostalgia that nevet existed, the utopia they are looking for does not exist in the developed world

If anyone comes up with a nation state where they will feel at home please let them know

Wrong. I presume where you live you have some kind of fence, boundary around your house. Would you take down your fences and then allow everyone to trample across your front lawn, the answer would be no. The same applies to our own borders, we need to enforce some type of control, not because we hate people but because there is only a certain amount of access our infrastructure can cope with.

 

[cunning fergus]

I can't imagine us not having free access to the single market in time - as you rightly say many countries already have that. But you'llagree that there is a big different between free access and the full access we have now. Norway has full access in exchange for conditions which the government suggests it won't accept and Switzerland has full access, but only in certain areas, and again in exchange for conditions that would upset hardcore Brexiters. We don't know what is going to happen regarding access and the uncertainty is what is concerning the big inward investors such as Nissan. The fact that Davis and May are employing slightly different language isn't helping.

Generally I agree, but there are plenty of moving parts in this situation and the UK's position is just one of them.

This is a point you are not making any allowance for, and it means that as the domestic political situations in EU member states change so will the attitude of the EU to the Brexit deal.

It's a undeniable fact that there is a growing insugency in many EU countries against either the EU itself or different EU policies. The migration crisis is a lightening rod for this developing political trend, and it will mean that either mainstream parties will have to adopt policies to meet that threat or, as we have seen in this country with Brexit vote they will be out. This situation is a separate point to the deep underlying economic problems within the eurozone and the need for greater integration to resolve it.

These problems and the associated political challenges will weaken the EU politically and provide an opportunity for the UK in our negotiations. The EU will not want to impose trade penalties in one of the biggest markets for its products, so there will need to be a sensible quid pro quo.

Japan is right to act in its own interests and no surprise, but until they have freedom of movement with other countries in their region so they can do one. They also know for example Honda had to lay off workers because of lack of demand for cars in Europe.........the UK on the other hand continues to have a comparitively strong car market, with a weak pound this is good news.

If the EU will not face down VW for its emission scandal, they will not want to piss them off (and other EU car manufacturers) by making exports to the 2nd biggest car market in the EU more expensive.

Nissan is going no where soon.