[Politics] Brexit

[The Clamp]

Good quality trolling needs a degree of subtlety or it just becomes unfunny and tedious .. hope this helps.

No trolling mate, I leave that to you right wing mob. Nice try though. Keep burying that head!

 

[cunning fergus]

You are right that the situation in the EU is fluid but times of change are times of opportunity. For example, the Visegrad group of middle-European countries is about to argue for many things (particularly involving national sovereignty and local culture) that coincide with what the UK wants - if we weren't walking away we could have had great and growing influence in that part of the continent. And in other parts too - many in Scandinavia, the Netherlands and even Germany share that vision. We tossed away the opportunity to influence the way 'Europe' developed in the early 50s and now it seems we are making the same mistake now - our timing looks exactly and precisely wrong to me. As a Dutch acquaintance said to me in July, "we were all relying on you".

The British have had a few foreign policy disasters in my lifetime but this one worries me more than most, for this reason... for every person like you who argues cogently in favour of what is happening there seem to be plenty more singing to the hymnsheet prepared by the Daily Express and the UKIP extremes. The country is looking mean-spirited. You can discount the rise in violence against Remain supporters and eastern Europeans as the actions of a minority, but consider this: Our land of 64 million people has agreed to take in, every year until 2020, a quantity of war-battered Syrian refugees equivalent to Grimsby Town's home attendance. It is a tiny number. An opinion poll I read two days ago showed what the British people thought of this figure. The great majority of those questioned thought it was too many.

This isn't the England I love.

Meanwhile, offstage, Arron Banks is revving up with his plan for a rightwing equivalent to Momentum, a organisation to 'keep the Tories clean' as they progress along the holy path of Brexit. Some of the kippers on here will be delighted without how things are going. For those of centrist, liberal or leftist inclination this must be the worst of times.

There are different points here, and not all relating to Brexit. Taking a couple.

The direction of the EU in recent years, and particularly since the Lisbon Treaty has been entirely without consent of the EU doctorate at large, when referendums were held on the constitution they were rejected in France and Holland. Had there been more consent from the EU and leaders of national governments on the EU and it's direction of travel I doubt it would have eve have come to this. It has though and it's not the fault of the electorate. It was the older cohorts that rejected the EU in the Brexit vote, most of who would have voted to join in 1975..........the EU in 2016 was not what they voted for.

In the last 4 weeks I have been to Germany, Spain and France. My anecdotal experience from those that asked me how I voted was bar one young frenchie in Paris was they supported Brexit. In Germany I was shaken by the hand twice by strangers on Brexit and they never asked how voted. Not very scientific I know but there was no malice as it should be.

The rise in extremism in my view is overblown, the Polish ambassador was in Harlow for a murder which has not yet had a motive established, it may be hate crime it may be like Gary Newlove, I think the media are feeding a narrative which is not accurate.

That is not to ignore the fact that there are more Polish nationals in UK prisons than any other nation, including murderers and rapists so let's not assume that British people are unaffected by hate crime or just good old fashioned violence.

The British victims of polish and the thousands of other foreign prisoners in UK jails will just as equally say that this is not the England that I love..........

 

[vegster]

Woah, you are tripping over yourself again !!

The people of Sunderland and Newcastle's votes are just as valid as yours, so they dont need you patronising them I am sure.

How you can even start to envisage how the markets might look in 3 years time is quite telling as I dont recall you predicting correctly how the current markets have performed in the past couple of months since Brexit so it hardly makes you our resident George Soros does it !!

You and others seem to be to be longing for some bad news, anything absolutely anything that might demonstrate that you have a view worthy of consideration, you dont so get over it.

I'm not patronising their vote at all, they voted for a change in the hope that it might affect them positively. What then happens when they find that nothing has changed for them. It was said they voted out as a way of protesting that they felt left behind and abandoned with no voice and no hope, what happens when Brexit delivers little or no change ?

 

[pb21]

That is not to ignore the fact that there are more Polish nationals in UK prisons than any other nation

Including British nationals?!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Great post . And accurate. We need a bit more straight talking like this on here rather than snide posts from the usual suspects.

Pot, kettle and black Nibble.

 

[pb21]

I'm not patronising their vote at all, they voted for a change in the hope that it might affect them positively. What then happens when they find that nothing has changed for them. It was said they voted out as a way of protesting that they felt left behind and abandoned with no voice and no hope, what happens when Brexit delivers little or no change ?

They might start to hope for the good old days when EU funding helped improve the places where they live.

 

[The Clamp]

Pot, kettle and black Nibble.

I would class calling someone by the wrong user name continuously counts as snidey. Anyhow, you are categorically known as an unpleasant troll on here, in fact I saw someone calling you out on it yesterday or today on one of Mizen's politically retarded threads. So, shhhhhh.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I GUARANTEE you 90% of people in Sunderland and Newcastle who voted leave can't tell you how much EU funding their respective areas will lose IF brexit occurs.

A true capitalist speaking. How do YOU know they voting around their own economic prosperity ? Maybe like me they thought the hit was worth taking ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Actually I'm not, I'm looking for a governing body that combats wealth disparity by investing in deprived areas. The EU does this. UK governments rarely do.

I suspect the people of Greece, Italy, Spain and Ireland might somewhat disagree with you.

 

[The Clamp]

A true capitalist speaking. How do YOU know they voting around their own economic prosperity ? Maybe like me they thought the hit was worth taking ?

You're not a third as clever as you reckon yourself. Economic prosperity? well that's one reason to vote from a financial perspective. Another financial perspective that is born from trying to benefit everyone is the concept of trying to stem WEALTH DISPARITY. Something the EU is committed to.

It's not like the EU are travelling to poorer areas and handing out cash and sweets. They invest in Job creation. 70'000 jobs created by the EU in the North East between 2009 and 2014 alone. No. I'm not suggesting they vote for personal economic benefit but for job creation and to close the gap between rich and poor.

See, you're really not very smart are you?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I would class calling someone by the wrong user name continuously counts as snidey. Anyhow, you are categorically known as an unpleasant troll on here, in fact I saw someone calling you out on it yesterday or today on one of Mizen's politically retarded threads. So, shhhhhh.

You post in the same style as Nibble, you hold the same views as Nibble, you started posting when Nibble disappeared, and you appear as retarded as Nibble. Shall we ask @Bozza to check if you both use the same IP range ? I'm not the only one that believes you are Nibble.

 

[Soulman]

I'll have a go at answering if you don't mind.

1) making our own decisions:

If we want to sell to the US we have to meet set standards as we do with numerous other nations which is why many standards are pretty universal and of course companies/businesses currently trading within the EU single market already meet the standards. Plus of course you realise that a very very small percentage of UK companies export to the EU but 100% of all UK companies have to comply with EU regulations undoubtedly adding excessive costs. So to get back to your 'making our own decisions' query ... when Brexit is finalised it is entirely feasible as many as 95% of UK companies will no longer have to comply with unnecessary burdensome EU regulations. In future it is much more likely the regulations they follow will be set by the UK government/authorities, which looks a bit like making our own decisions to me.

http://forbritain.org/britishoption.pdf

Your Tory government removing the minimum wage point or indeed a Tory government introducing a more generous living wage would be an example of our democratically elected government enacting policy ... ie the UK making it's own decisions.

2) governing ourselves:

I don't recognise your definition of nearly all and in your previous point you seemed to be suggesting staying in the EU was going to stop a government you didn't vote for enact policy you didn't like. So you tacitly admit Brexit will indeed give us more self governance.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

3) Getting back our identity

As sovereignty and nation states powers are constantly diminished as they are after every EU treaty is signed it is reasonable to say our identity is also being changed/diluted. Basically more EU = less nation states (UK) which some remainers are entirely happy with and welcome. On the immigration point it it would also be fair to say adding millions of EU citizens over a relatively short period to a country would bring change especially in those areas that had absorbed higher levels of immigration.

Hope this qualifies as a proper answer.

Cheers JC. Saves me posting similar

 

[The Clamp]

You post in the same style as Nibble, you hold the same views as Nibble, you started posting when Nibble disappeared, and you appear as retarded as Nibble. Shall we ask [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] to check if you both use the same IP range ? I'm not the only only that believes you are Nibble.

You can do and believe what you wish. I won't be engaging with you if you do not have the decency to address me by my correct user name.

 

[Soulman]

Great post . And accurate. We need a bit more straight talking like this on here rather than snide posts from the usual suspects.

Surely a tongue in cheek smiley or a pot kettle is needed in this post.

 

[The Clamp]

Surely a tongue in cheek smiley or a pot kettle is needed in this post.

We hardly need it what with you and the other FAIRY GODFATHERS personally policing EVERY post on these threads.

 

[Soulman]

We hardly need it what with you and the other FAIRY GODFATHERS personally policing EVERY post on these threads.

At least I post under one username. Try it.

 

[The Clamp]

At least I post under one username. Try it.

You really are barking up the wrong tree. Anyway, I didn't come here to discuss Nibble or any other user. I came hereto discuss the EU and matters relating. It's a shame you cannot handle anyone holding an opposing view and a further shame that you get so angry, personal and off topic. With all that in mind and seeing as you don't seem to be able to drop the subject I shall respectfully bow out of this strand of discussion as it has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with your personal agendas and I find it rather unpleasant.

 

[BigGully]

Actually I'm not, I'm looking for a governing body that combats wealth disparity by investing in deprived areas. The EU does this. UK governments rarely do.

Little bit like wishing another country ruled over you if the will of the British people doesn't correlate to your own view.

I take it you are incandescent with rage over poor old Greece and the unemployment rates throughout the EU region you must be frothing at the mouth ........

 

[BigGully]

I'm not patronising their vote at all, they voted for a change in the hope that it might affect them positively. What then happens when they find that nothing has changed for them. It was said they voted out as a way of protesting that they felt left behind and abandoned with no voice and no hope, what happens when Brexit delivers little or no change ?

It just seems strange that you identify Sunderland and Newcastle in your example rather say our on local regions that voted similarly, what are Sunderland and Newcastle going to miss out on that all the other areas assume they might benefit from leaving.

Its a bit like saying, 'it will just be rubbish', without much thought.

 

[The Clamp]

It just seems strange that you identify Sunderland and Newcastle in your example rather say our on local regions that voted similarly, what are Sunderland and Newcastle going to miss out on that all the other areas assume they might benefit from leaving.

Its a bit like saying, 'it will just be rubbish', without much thought.

Honestly, the lack of research the leave voters display on this subject is truly, truly depressing. This is from one google search. It ain't that hard!

http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2832