[Politics] Brexit

[vegster]

I'm finding it hard to believe that those letters comply with the law.

The first, being unsigned, has no authority. The second undermined parliament.

Maybe Boris has run out of crayons ?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Right. It’s almost midnight. I’m looking forward to seeing Boris “I won’t ask for an extension” Johnson “dead in a ditch”. I presume it will be a London ditch?

 

[Hugo Rune]

So they have a vote to pass said law?

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

The letter certainly doesn't need signing to have effect, no question about that.

But the optics matter. The EU are clearly in the eyes of everyone watching, negotiating an extension (if they do) with a parliament and not with a President or Prime Minister. They generally don't like to operate that way, and it's not a precident they will enjoy setting. They seem to have enjoyed good negotiations with the PM in good faith, and to agree to this would also mean going around him, and doing the very thing the person they have been negotiating with has expressly said he doesn't want them to do.

He is also likely to be the leader of a Commons majority after a GE, and will be much more in control of what happens re:Brexit after an election.

It doesn't mean they won't accept an extension, but it makes it as hard and uncomfortable as possible.

I think it might be a bit more complicated than that. It is quite possible, but I think "likely" is a bit strong. We live in strange times.

 

[Jaxie]

Instead of people just saying “we voted for it, so must leave”, why can’t we talk about actual, tangible benefits/consequences to Leaving/Remaining. As we all now know, there are NO benefits to leaving (unless you happen to be a Billionaire already, I’d suggest that doesn’t include many of us). If anyone disagrees, or if I’ve missed something, please enlighten me! As nobody has managed to for nearly 4 years! For the majority of us, EU membership has only been a positive effect on day to day life, in so many ways. And no ones life is going to be worse should we remain a member.

F*ck Brexit.

 

[dingodan]

I think it might be a bit more complicated than that. It is quite possible, but I think "likely" is a bit strong. We live in strange times.

That's fair, but he has been enjoying a good lead, and that's before a) he has earned massive props for doing the "undoable" by getting the WA reopened, getting rid of the backstop, and agreeing a deal with the EU with speed, grace and goodwill on both sides, b) He approached the Benn Bill in the right manner to obey the law and also retain his dignity, and c) his GE opponents have today shown themselves to be willing to extend this farce even more, which I think the electorate won't feel like thanking them for.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

That's fair, but he has been enjoying a good lead, and that's before a) he has earned massive props for doing the "undoable" by getting the WA reopened, getting rid of the backstop, and agreeing a deal with the EU with speed, grace and goodwill on both sides, b) He approached the Benn Bill in the right manner to obey the law and also retain his dignity, and c) his GE opponents have today shown themselves to be willing to extend this farce even more, which I think the electorate won't feel like thanking them for.

There was a fairly good chunk of the electorate walking round the streets of London today wearing a lot of blue and yellow, and it wasn't a demonstration in favour of IKEA. There are large numbers of people opposing what BoJo wants to do.

 

[dingodan]

Instead of people just saying “we voted for it, so must leave”, why can’t we talk about actual, tangible benefits/consequences to Leaving/Remaining. As we all now know, there are NO benefits to leaving (unless you happen to be a Billionaire already, I’d suggest that doesn’t include many of us). If anyone disagrees, or if I’ve missed something, please enlighten me! As nobody has managed to for nearly 4 years! For the majority of us, EU membership has only been a positive effect on day to day life, in so many ways. And no ones life is going to be worse should we remain a member.

F*ck Brexit.

"why can’t we talk about actual, tangible benefits/consequences to Leaving/Remaining." - We have, and then we voted, and leave won.

"nobody has managed to for nearly 4 years" - Not agreeing with peoples reasons for leaving doesn't mean they haven't told you what they are, it just means you didn't hear or were not listening.

Please can you try to understand that people who want to leave respect and understand your reasons for wanting to remain, all they ask is that you do the same.

I don't know what success you could have had, but you would have been better off over the last 4 years saying, "yes, I hear you, I understand, but I disagree, here is why". Instead, all we have had is, "what? I have no idea what you are talking about! you are crazy! and racist! and you must be a billionaire!" Not once have I heard a remainer try to respectfully convince me to remain in the EU, all I've had is people try to bully me into changing my mind for fear of being cast as an immoral person. You will never win anyone over like that.

 

[dingodan]

There was a fairly good chunk of the electorate walking round the streets of London today wearing a lot of blue and yellow, and it wasn't a demonstration in favour of IKEA. There are large numbers of people opposing what BoJo wants to do.

That's a relative concept.

Will the remain parties win votes? Of course.

But 406 constituencies voted to leave, 242 voted to remain. MPs sitting in Parliament today were elected on the promise to respect the result. How many of them have broken that promise. How many of those will be replaced by people who will respect the result. Quite a few I would imagine.

 

[Motogull]

Boris sending two letters. One asking for a delay (which is just a photocopy of the one in the Benn Act which he won't sign) and another saying he doesn't want one which he will.



What a laughing stock this Prime Minister is.

Courts are gonna be busy next week.

Taking the piss. Again. The letter read out in court confirmed there would be no attempt to frustrate this. So he does not sign the letter but signs a simultaneous letter. He's not fit for purpose. He's no doubt grinning like a ******* jap. The contemptible kunnt.

 

[Bodian]

That's fair, but he has been enjoying a good lead, and that's before a) he has earned massive props for doing the "undoable" by getting the WA reopened, getting rid of the backstop, and agreeing a deal with the EU with speed, grace and goodwill on both sides, b) He approached the Benn Bill in the right manner to obey the law and also retain his dignity, and c) his GE opponents have today shown themselves to be willing to extend this farce even more, which I think the electorate won't feel like thanking them for.

He only 'did the undoable' by completely reneging on his promises and exhortations that there would never be a border in the Irish Sea. The EU said that the WA wouldn't be re-opened, but when Johnson removed the red lines May had imposed (which he said he would never do), it was a totally different situation.

 

[Jaxie]

"why can’t we talk about actual, tangible benefits/consequences to Leaving/Remaining." - We have, and then we voted, and leave won.

"nobody has managed to for nearly 4 years" - Not agreeing with peoples reasons for leaving doesn't mean they haven't told you what they are, it just means you didn't hear or were not listening.

Please can you try to understand that people who want to leave respect and understand your reasons for wanting to remain, all they ask is that you do the same. I don't know what success you could have had, but you would have been better off over the last 4 years saying, "yes, I hear you, I understand, but I disagree, here is why". Instead, all we have had is, "what? I have no idea what you are talking about! you are crazy! and racist! and you must be a billionaire!" Not once have I heard a remainer try to respectfully convince me to remain in the EU, all I've had is people try to bully me into changing my mind for fear of being cast as an immoral person. You will never win anyone over like that.

Leave came out marginally on top, on a campaign based on complete bullshit, knowingly spread by Serial liars Cough Turkey joining EU, 350 million a week to NHS, sunlit uplands etc etc.
I don’t think I’ve bullied anyone, my point is what is it all for? I’m trying to engage by finding out one good reason why this is happening! I’m saying no one is reassuring me why we will be better off after Brexit, only a prime minister trying to sneak it over the line. That tells me it can’t be that great. And if the country really does want it as eurosceptic Tory mps keep telling me, another referendum won’t do any damage will it?

 

[Bodian]

F*ck Brexit.

One too few asterisks according to this poster I saw in Harrogate (attached for humour, as it entertained me - not to wind leavers up).

 

[Bodian]

Leave came out marginally on top, on a campaign based on complete bullshit, knowingly spread by Serial liars Cough Turkey joining EU, 350 million a week to NHS, sunlit uplands etc etc.
I don’t think I’ve bullied anyone, my point is what is it all for? I’m trying to engage by finding out one good reason why this is happening! I’m saying no one is reassuring me why we will be better off after Brexit, only a prime minister trying to sneak it over the line. That tells me it can’t be that great. And if the country really does want it as eurosceptic Tory mps keep telling me, another referendum won’t do any damage will it?

Don't take it personally. Dingodan implied I was a 'playground bully' earlier in this thread. But like you, I'm not aware of ever bullying anyone.

 

[dingodan]

Taking the piss. Again. The letter read out in court confirmed there would be no attempt to frustrate this. So he does not sign the letter but signs a simultaneous letter. He's not fit for purpose. He's no doubt grinning like a ******* jap. The contemptible kunnt.

Like I said in a previous post, I'm not sure how it can be argued that he must pretend to want what he doesn't want, and he must shut up about what he does want. That to me seems too coercive.

I'm also not exactly sure whether he frustrated the intent of the act. The intent of the act was the sending of the letter. The making of the request. He hasn't frustrated the sending of the letter or the making of the request. He has perhaps frustrated the obtaining of the extension, but even then that's kind of hard to argue because it's the EU's decision. He can't really frustrate that. He has expressed his view, and if he isn't entitled to do that, then surely he is a PM, and this is a government, under duress.

 

[dingodan]

He only 'did the undoable' by completely reneging on his promises and exhortations that there would never be a border in the Irish Sea. The EU said that the WA wouldn't be re-opened, but when Johnson removed the red lines May had imposed (which he said he would never do), it was a totally different situation.

That's not how most people see it.

 

[Jaxie]

Don't take it personally. Dingodan implied I was a 'playground bully' earlier in this thread. But like you, I'm not aware of ever bullying anyone.

Cheers! I don’t consider asking people for a reason leaving the EU will be a positive for me and my family, to be bullying. It’s incredible, I still haven’t been given one.

 

[Jaxie]

Perhaps the reason leave voters are struggling to provide a single positive to leaving after all this time, is that there aren’t any.

 

[dingodan]

Leave came out marginally on top, on a campaign based on complete bullshit, knowingly spread by Serial liars Cough Turkey joining EU, 350 million a week to NHS, sunlit uplands etc etc.
I don’t think I’ve bullied anyone, my point is what is it all for? I’m trying to engage by finding out one good reason why this is happening! I’m saying no one is reassuring me why we will be better off after Brexit, only a prime minister trying to sneak it over the line. That tells me it can’t be that great. And if the country really does want it as eurosceptic Tory mps keep telling me, another referendum won’t do any damage will it?

I'll humor you and I'll assume you haven't heard. But I don't look forward to your (and others) response.

Most people who voted to leave did so for one simple reason.

They want the laws they have to live under to be made by the people they elect to office.

I have explained this in the past, but generally the response has been dismissive, that this is already the case, etc.

I would welcome someone acknowledging that, yes, in the EU we are subject to laws which are made not by the people we elect to office, and that this is something which they understand is a problem for many people, but they believe that it is a price worth paying for X,Y,Z benefits of being in the EU. That would at least be the start of an honest conversation. Hasn't happened yet, but I remain hopeful.

 

[lawros left foot]

I have a serious question