[Politics] Brexit

[Stat Brother]

Lol

I'm still waiting for a reply.

But more importantly I'm waiting for [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] to explain the WTO ramifications of 0% duty on petrol imports but a 4.7% export duty on petrol sold to the EU.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

We currently have a free movement of goods and people between Ireland and Northern Ireland. That would need to remain as is. Moving things between one and the other wouldn't be smuggling, it would be as legal as it is now.
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Yes, as long as nothing changes. My point was that things could change. The history between Eire and Ulster has included moving guns, paramilitary funding and other naughtiness across an unpoliceable border. If troubles resume....

Also, let's not forget that if people are willing to travel from the middle east and camp on the France coast in order to make hazardous journeys across the channel to illegally enter the UK, consider how much more attractive the porous Irish border would be.

I am not saying any of this will happen, but I think that making some sort of planning would be wise.

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes, as long as nothing changes. My point was that things could change. The history between Eire and Ulster has included moving guns, paramilitary funding and other naughtiness across an unpoliceable border. If troubles resume....

But that's the case even if we remain in the EU.

Also, let's not forget that if people are willing to travel from the middle east and camp on the France coast in order to make hazardous journeys across the channel to illegally enter the UK, consider how much more attractive the porous Irish border would be.

So why don't they travel to Ireland now?

 

[Igzilla]

It’s fascinating how many people don’t understand this, or choose to ignore it.

I think this includes the Right Honourable Member for Shoreham and East Worthing.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No, I thought Parliamentary democracy, where parliamentarians attended parliament to fulfil their promises to represent the views of the people, was what we had.

I was wrong.

A ruling class masquerading as a Parliamentary democracy is what we have, and that is pointless.

Believing that the people of this country have a say in their own destiny was nieve and foolish of me, and if you still believe that, in the face of everything we have seen, then you are just as nieve and foolish as I was. Or maybe you don't care, because you are getting your own way. On this. For now. The time will come when you too will expressely declare your instruction to your representitives.

Only to find, as we have, that they have no intention of representing you at all.

You need to ask yourself this, if two constituents have opposing views...how does the MP represent both of these people?

They can’t, and they don’t. It’s this simple.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But that's the case even if we remain in the EU.

I think being in the EU has helped keep the peace. After we leave I can see things changing. Separately, where there is scope for making money across a border, taking advantage of differences between states, criminals will move in. Consider, if no borders were needed anywhere there would be none. Borders disappear only when there are deals that allow free trade and movement of people....of course if our Brexit deal included free trade . . . .no problem (and see below)

So why don't they travel to Ireland now?

Actually that is an excellent point. I presume the perception is that Calais is as close to England as you can get. One less sea crossing. I have no idea why folk don't head for the Ireland border now, but they don't so I guess they won't.

 

[dingodan]

You need to ask yourself this, if two constituents have opposing views...how does the MP represent both of these people?

They can’t, and they don’t. It’s this simple.

It's easy. They do what they said they would do when they ran and got elected.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

We currently have a free movement of goods and people between Ireland and Northern Ireland. That would need to remain as is. Moving things between one and the other wouldn't be smuggling, it would be as legal as it is now.

That doesn't make sense. You can match the EU laws if you're not in the EU.

Only if you are in the Single Market.

WTO rules also means a hard border, as I understand it.

 

[dingodan]

As well as your fundamental failure to understand the responsibilities with which an MP is charged, you also continually ignore that they represent NOT just 'the people who sent them there' by voting for them, but in fact ALL constituents, regardless of their voting history.

They represent the people who elected them. That's why they were elected. To represented the people who elected them to represent them. Based on what they promised to do.

Who is failing to understand the basics of democracy here?

 

[dingodan]

Personally, democracy for me is not only about the number of votes garnered, its about how the votes are earned. If a campaign is run on lies, falsehoods and baseless claims, then, no matter the result, it ain’t democracy for me.

Right.

So when an MP is elected on the basis that they will respect the vote and get Brexit done - not doing so aint democracy.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[dingodan]

That's not the way that parliamentary democracy works. It's a long established belief that MPs vote according to their beliefs or consciences, not necessarily the way that constituents want. I've posted Burke's words on this before but it's worth posting them again "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion." Other people have posted Churchill's views, which echo Burke's.

Your view is very much out of step with the way that parliament operates.

I can accept that for almost all circumstances except for two.

When an explicit promise is made during an election.

When a decision is deferred to the people, the people's instruction is sought, and their instruction is given.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Who is failing to understand the basics of democracy here?

You, it seems.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yes, and we'd also need free movement between NI and Ireland.

I agree but unless we stay in the Single Market, and allow Free Movement, then the back stop is needed.
There are four basics of the EU, and those are two of them.

Switzerland is also in EFTA with 6 other countries. There is free movement for people but their border closes every night for freight.

 

[highflyer]

It's easy. They do what they said they would do when they ran and got elected.

I think we need to agree some kind of fair distribution of labour on this and organize a 'take turns to explain how democracy works to [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION]' system.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

It's easy. They do what they said they would do when they ran and got elected.

Get a deal?

 

[dingodan]

I think we need to agree some kind of fair distribution of labour on this and organize a 'take turns to explain how democracy works to [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION]' system.

What you are all saying about "how democracy works", is infact how it doesn't work.

In every sense. The proof is in the pudding. Your way is the current way being effected.

It won't "work" this way, because trust is gone.

A no-deal Brexit may have had some negative consequences for this country.

A no-trust democracy will ultimately take us somewhere much worse when all is said and done.

 

[Stat Brother]

Actually that is an excellent point. I presume the perception is that Calais is as close to England as you can get. One less sea crossing. I have no idea why folk don't head for the Ireland border now, but they don't so I guess they won't.

I'll have a GUESS at that.

I'll put it down to geography:-

The exports from Europe to Ireland will predominately be coming from east of the UK.
So everything would either have to be transported across France to Brittany.
Or shipped from Calais, the width of the channel, before heading north.

The crossing itself:-

Shitehouse.

Finally multi drops:-

Companies, haulagers and couriers might not do much business with Ireland, but plenty with The UK & Ireland.
Nobody wants to be chugging around Europe with an empty container/vehicle etc.

 

[Grombleton]

I can accept that for almost all circumstances except for two.

When an explicit promise is made during an election.

When a decision is deferred to the people, the people's instruction is sought, and their instruction is given.

What happens if you chose to vote one way, but it wasn't the majority in the consituency? So if you voted leave but the constituency voted to remain - it might not be the overall majority across the country but he would now, in fact be doing as instructed.

 

[Stat Brother]

Switzerland is also in EFTA with 6 other countries. There is free movement for people but their border closes every night for freight.

We've already established there's free enough movement for commuters across the Swiss border.
But ALL freight is subject to all the usual checks required for entering a country in a different economic zone.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'll have a GUESS at that.

I'll put it down to geography:-

The exports from Europe to Ireland will predominately be coming from east of the UK.
So everything would either have to be transported across France to Brittany.
Or shipped from Calais, the width of the channel, before heading north.

The crossing itself:-

Shitehouse.

Finally multi drops:-

Companies, haulagers and couriers might not do much business with Ireland, but plenty with The UK & Ireland.
Nobody wants to be chugging around Europe with an empty container/vehicle etc.

That makes sense. If the Dover Calais border gets even harder after Brexit, however, the route to Ireland via Brittany (for legal as well as illegal travel) may become more appealing.

Small point I guess - time will tell, etc.