[Politics] Brexit

[Westdene Seagull]

How long were you on JSA (Assuming it was and ESA) for in 2016? I assume you were you on Housing Benefit too?

6 months ..... that's all you get with CB JSA. And no housing benefit.

 

[A1X]

Farage started work on Boris last week saying that Johnson " cannot be trusted to deliver Brexit ".... A nice double whammy for our Nige, it puts more pressure on Johnson to deliver and highlights that Farage heads a voting group that will split votes from the Tories in a GE. It also helps keep the Brexit Party membership fees rolling in.... Kerching!

It's almost like whatever happens he'll be pushing a "betrayal" narrative and trying to shirk any of the blame.

 

[ManOfSussex]

6 months ..... that's all you get with CB JSA. And no housing benefit.

The full 6 months with no sanctions? Impressive. You were obviously working beforehand then, so just of interest what tax bands were you in beforehand and now, because how did you manage to survive being on JSA for 6 months with no housing benefit, unless you owned property and had some decent savings and/or a spouse working? In one of the friendly discussions you and your good friend Plooks like to have, I thought you said you were in the Higher or Top rate? The reason I'm asking, is the point I was making earlier on benefit claimants doesn't seem to apply to you, because you don't seem to strike me as a normal one.

 

[WATFORD zero]

We know where Ernest stands too ...



I am certain most Brexiteers (including me) want a deal, even at this late stage but not any old deal and certainly not one the one that includes tying us inside the customs union indefinitely without an exit date. If no deal happens it is because the EU (Eire) insists a deal that has been rejected by the United Kingdom parliament on numerous occasions and by a record margin, cannot be changed. If avoiding no deal and increased tensions in NI is so important to the Irish I have no idea why they couldn't agree to a temporary backstop (say 2 years) where our future trade relationship would be partially negotiated /much clearer with the possibility to extend the agreement at any time to continue trade negotiations but also have the ability, with a set amount of notice ( say 6 months) to end the process (very unlikely). Pretty sure this would have got through the HoC and still would.

Btw if the reverse had happened and the European parliament had rejected the deal numerous times with a record majority against, I doubt many remainers on this thread would be saying it's ok for the UK government to ignore them and stick to a position of rejected deal or no deal. On the question of fronting up I take it you would be prepared to accept any deal, no matter how bad, rather than no deal.

I have no idea whether it would get through the HOC, but you are suggesting a solution where Britain could leave the EU trying to operate a Single Market with no borders ?

If you can't imagine why the EU would have a problem with that, i'd suggest you have spent a significant part of the last 3 years asleep or pissed (although that would explain some of your posts ).

'It'll all be fine Ursula, there's a bloke on NSC that says it's very unlikely to happen anyway'

 

[ManOfSussex]

Btw if the reverse had happened and the European parliament had rejected the deal numerous times with a record majority against, I doubt many remainers on this thread would be saying it's ok for the UK government to ignore them and stick to a position of rejected deal or no deal.

Interesting - If The UK Government negotiated a Withdrawal Agreement in good faith based on each others red lines set down at the start, including the formulation of the backstop as per EU red lines that really didn't give them much wriggle room, and The UK and EU reached an agreement for The Withdrawal only for it to all fall down because the European Parliament wouldn't vote for it for 3 times, what would you have liked The UK Government to have done? Bearing in mind this is just The Withdrawal Agreement, would you trust them in the future now they've reneged on this? What about the UK Government's red lines? Would you like The UK to cut them the slack they need and have open borders, say at the channel ports? Lets say some arrogant, eccentric oddballs in the European Parliament, rather then The Westminster one, (educated at elite Swiss finishing schools rather than English Public ones) started talking vaguely about technological solutions without any details other than vague waffle? Would you think it sounds plausible? How do you think The EU rejecting it 3 times, having agreed it, would reflect on them globally? What do you think it does to their reputation? Would it make it look good? Lets say The EU Parliament is really bitterly divided on this too, like The EU as a whole is - what would you like The UK to do faced with all that?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You would think that the Founder of the Brexit Party would check her facts before tweeting this.

[tweet]1156137033506668544[/tweet]

 

[WATFORD zero]

After 3 years, when you think everything has been said

The first minister (for Wales) said the PM told him there would be many new opportunities for Welsh agriculture and businesses, but he had "no sense again" there was detailed thinking behind what "otherwise becomes vacuous optimism".



Bet he's been saving that up for Johnson's visit. Johnson's whole plan reduced to two words.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49151870

 

[Baldseagull]

Lets be honest, it hasn't been difficult to see the direction the EU has been heading for the last 25 years and the complete failure of Cameron and his team to re-negotiate our terms, finally concentrated a lot of minds on the issue. Most people will have decided long before the referendum whether they favoured globalism and centralised control or whether they favoured independence and self-control. For many, no further information was needed. It was as simple as that.
We can all spend hours debating the finer points of Remaining or Leaving but this is at the core of the argument and is the main cause of the divide.

I am sure many had a fair idea of how they would vote, but to close your ears to any discussion or reasoning when it is decision time, is strange to me.

 

[Baldseagull]

Great stuff, let parliament decide then how we should Leave the EU (no need for another vote) after receiving the non binding instruction they received from the electorate after they decided to delegate the decision to the people.
Its what people expected to happen anyway.....the people vote with an instruction (ie simply LEAVE)....up to the executive to negotiate that instruction .....and parliament to approve what the executive have negotiated or allow the instruction given by the people to happen anyway without an agreement according to International law in the Lisbon treaty.....which hopefully remainers read before they voted.



I agree with you, if we leave on oct 31st with a withdrawal agreement that he wants, then the bluff of Boris regarding no deal will have worked and will have achieved its purpose.

You disagree with me if you think Bo Jo will get the backstop significantly altered or removed.

 

[theonlymikey]

Let's get real for a minute here.

I voted leave. I wasn't exactly what you call an on the fence or swing voter. In fact I was passionately pro leave and very vocal as such trying to persuade people it was the right thing to do.

Firstly, I in no way voted to be worse off. Not even for a second did I vote to be worse off in the short term, full stop.

In fact, as a daily mail reader (at the time) being worse off , even in the short term was dismissed as 'Scare mongering ' or 'project fear' by the leave campaign.

In actual fact, I voted for the easiest deal in human history, one that could be "rapidly" (quote Boris johnson) implemented.

3 years down the line there has been no such thing as the easiest deal in human history. I now know this doesn't and never did exist.

In actual fact, I voted to avoid an "ever closer union". This hasn't happened. And in hindsight, I recognise we had Veto powers to avoid this. This no longer remains true.

In actual fact, I voted to avoid an EU army. This hasn't happened. In hindsight, I now question why I even thought an EU army is even an issue. Whats so bad about having 27 allies and the most powerful army on the planet? But the exclamation marks and capital letter mail headlines had me thinking this was a disaster.

I actually voted to avoid 70 million Turks turning up on my doorstep. Despite the fact they are are decades away from meeting EU criteria to join the bloc.

One of the reasons I voted to stop further risk of immigration was the strain on our public services. This however, was not a lie. But the dirty little secret? The leave campaign convinced me it was because there was too many people coming from the EU. It wasn't that at all . It was and still is a result of poorly funded public services caused by Tory austerity. I was young, I didn't know better.

I actually voted to regain sovereignty. I was 24 at the time. Got to be honest, didn't really even know what sovereignty was, all I know is the daily mail made me think we had to have it, at whatever cost.

Again, hindsight taught me we have a veto for major changes. Hindsight taught me EU laws are a tiny percentage of our laws. And the ones they DID enforce, actually make a lot of sense. But the daily mail told me "How very dare they".

We are now three years down the line. My worst fears havent come true, nor was there any real risk of them happening.

But one fear I didn't expect, was to be poorer and now this looks like a certainty. see most think tank studies. The fact that 40 billion will be wiped off our GDP to save a supposed (absolute lie) £350m per week?

All this caused by what was the actual project fear, the leave campaign.

Three years have changed me. Older, wiser and reading papers that don't have divisive rhetoric.

If I'm so passionately remain, after being so passionately leave, I do wonder just how many swing voters who voted out now live every day with regret, like me.

Democracy is about flexibility and changing opinions based on current affairs. Stop stealing my democracy and let me fix the sh1t I helped create.






Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[Baldseagull]

Most people who voted Leave did so in the firm expectation that the economy would take a hit in the short term. It was clear that they were prepared to put up with this, to get the end result they wanted. It was obvious to most that it would be bloody and quite painful, after an association lasting 40 years. The financial markets are generally built around confidence and a clear way forward. For the last three years there has been too much negativity and this had clearly had a detrimental effect on the economy and leaves us in the recessive state we are now in. Spending levels are low, confidence is low and businesses are suffering. I don't blame Remainers. They are fighting their cause with a passion and a conviction that it is better to stay in the EU.
Although it is a simplistic view, it does appear that the Leave/Remain voters generally fall into one of two categories. Either, those that are more tolerant of anticipated economic hardship or those that are not.
( If you consider yourself worse off as an individual spare a thought for many of the 4.5-5 million SME's, the lifeblood of this country, who are now having to contribute to compulsory workplace pensions, on top of NI contributions and corporation tax as well as many other hidden costs that our bureaucratic brothers like to foist on us. Believe you me, life is considerably tougher as an employer at the moment, than as an individual )

It is not my personal finances that I am concerned about with leaving.
Could you educate me on some of "the many other hidden costs" to business that you seem to be suggesting have been foisted upon us by the EU?

 

[Lever]

Let's get real for a minute here.

I voted leave. I wasn't exactly what you call an on the fence or swing voter. In fact I was passionately pro leave and very vocal as such trying to persuade people it was the right thing to do.

Firstly, I in no way voted to be worse off. Not even for a second did I vote to be worse off in the short term, full stop.

In fact, as a daily mail reader (at the time) being worse off , even in the short term was dismissed as 'Scare mongering ' or 'project fear' by the leave campaign.

In actual fact, I voted for the easiest deal in human history, one that could be "rapidly" (quote Boris johnson) implemented.

3 years down the line there has been no such thing as the easiest deal in human history. I now know this doesn't and never did exist.

In actual fact, I voted to avoid an "ever closer union". This hasn't happened. And in hindsight, I recognise we had Veto powers to avoid this. This no longer remains true.

In actual fact, I voted to avoid an EU army. This hasn't happened. In hindsight, I now question why I even thought an EU army is even an issue. Whats so bad about having 27 allies and the most powerful army on the planet? But the exclamation marks and capital letter mail headlines had me thinking this was a disaster.

I actually voted to avoid 70 million Turks turning up on my doorstep. Despite the fact they are are decades away from meeting EU criteria to join the bloc.

One of the reasons I voted to stop further risk of immigration was the strain on our public services. This however, was not a lie. But the dirty little secret? The leave campaign convinced me it was because there was too many people coming from the EU. It wasn't that at all . It was and still is a result of poorly funded public services caused by Tory austerity. I was young, I didn't know better.

I actually voted to regain sovereignty. I was 24 at the time. Got to be honest, didn't really even know what sovereignty was, all I know is the daily mail made me think we had to have it, at whatever cost.

Again, hindsight taught me we have a veto for major changes. Hindsight taught me EU laws are a tiny percentage of our laws. And the ones they DID enforce, actually make a lot of sense. But the daily mail told me "How very dare they".

We are now three years down the line. My worst fears havent come true, nor was there any real risk of them happening.

But one fear I didn't expect, was to be poorer and now this looks like a certainty. see most think tank studies. The fact that 40 billion will be wiped off our GDP to save a supposed (absolute lie) £350m per week?

All this caused by what was the actual project fear, the leave campaign.

Three years have changed me. Older, wiser and reading papers that don't have divisive rhetoric.

If I'm so passionately remain, after being so passionately leave, I do wonder just how many swing voters who voted out now live every day with regret, like me.

Democracy is about flexibility and changing opinions based on current affairs. Stop stealing my democracy and let me fix the sh1t I helped create.






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You will of course be accused of being a liar who has made up this narrative; but I believe you and I am equally sure there are many more similar testimonies. We may never know.....

 

[Baldseagull]

I'm sure some, who were totally committed to leaving, were prepared for this, knowing everyone else was, as well.
Our nation has become considerably more self-interested and self-centred in recent years. Many on this thread haven't lived through semi permanent strikes, civil unrest, three day working weeks, severe deprivation, bodies not being buried, rubbish 20 feet high in the streets, daily power cuts, 15% interest rates, 3-4 million unemployed etc. Life has been pretty comfortable in the last few years and so any change to lifestyle is greeted with faux outrage.
Its understandable. People have become more more selfish and only see things through their own personal circumstances.

Is it not a good thing that we have not experienced those things for decades?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Interesting - If The UK Government negotiated a Withdrawal Agreement in good faith based on each others red lines set down at the start, including the formulation of the backstop as per EU red lines that really didn't give them much wriggle room, and The UK and EU reached an agreement for The Withdrawal only for it to all fall down because the European Parliament wouldn't vote for it for 3 times, what would you have liked The UK Government to have done? Bearing in mind this is just The Withdrawal Agreement, would you trust them in the future now they've reneged on this? What about the UK Government's red lines? Would you like The UK to cut them the slack they need and have open borders, say at the channel ports? Lets say some arrogant, eccentric oddballs in the European Parliament, rather then The Westminster one, (educated at elite Swiss finishing schools rather than English Public ones) started talking vaguely about technological solutions without any details other than vague waffle? Would you think it sounds plausible? How do you think The EU rejecting it 3 times, having agreed it, would reflect on them globally? What do you think it does to their reputation? Would it make it look good? Lets say The EU Parliament is really bitterly divided on this too, like The EU as a whole is - what would you like The UK to do faced with all that?

I admire your stamina, still trying to talk reason to the prancing ninny after all this time. I suspect my solution is preferable.

Anyway, if we are leaving 'come what May' (or come all over May) in October, why is any Brexitter still whining/gloating/banging on about bollocks on NSC?







It isn't going to happen, is it, this 'Brexit' thing. Who knew?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You will of course be accused of being a liar who has made up this narrative; but I believe you and I am equally sure there are many more similar testimonies. We may never know.....

I've read similar on Twitter under @RemainerNow. There are videos of people talking about why they voted and hose they've changed their minds.

 

[Baldseagull]

You're wrong then. At the time I voted leave I was on benefits of £73 a week.

Did you vote Leave thinking you would be worse off by doing so though?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Having done my best to follow the debates on the thread, I'm still (genuinely) not sure where the Brexiteers (other the ppf) stand on the issue of 'no deal'. As we are fast approaching crunch time this is something that we as a country and individually need to front-up.
I get the impression (perhaps wrongly) that most would accept a no deal. But are there any that would simply say no to no-deal?

No one voted for a deal , leave or remain, the so called deal TM conjured up was shit and that's why we're heading for a no deal ,no more stalling LEAVE MEANS LEAVE No point in all the usual suspects on here speculating with if buts and maybe's ,it's time to move on even of you dont like
Change , just remember a spoon full of suger helps the medicine go down in the most delightfull way
Regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I admire your stamina, still trying to talk reason to the prancing ninny after all this time. I suspect my solution is preferable.

Anyway, if we are leaving 'come what May' (or come all over May) in October, why is any Brexitter still whining/gloating/banging on about bollocks on NSC?


We're just here to keep a healthy balance on procedings H , maybe you just need a hug
Regards
DR




It isn't going to happen, is it, this 'Brexit' thing. Who knew?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Did you vote Leave thinking you would be worse off by doing so though?

How long are we going to be worse off for 6 months a year, 5 years ,10 years , for ever
Regards
DR

 

[Baldseagull]

Let's get real for a minute here.

I voted leave. I wasn't exactly what you call an on the fence or swing voter. In fact I was passionately pro leave and very vocal as such trying to persuade people it was the right thing to do.

Firstly, I in no way voted to be worse off. Not even for a second did I vote to be worse off in the short term, full stop.

In fact, as a daily mail reader (at the time) being worse off , even in the short term was dismissed as 'Scare mongering ' or 'project fear' by the leave campaign.

In actual fact, I voted for the easiest deal in human history, one that could be "rapidly" (quote Boris johnson) implemented.

3 years down the line there has been no such thing as the easiest deal in human history. I now know this doesn't and never did exist.

In actual fact, I voted to avoid an "ever closer union". This hasn't happened. And in hindsight, I recognise we had Veto powers to avoid this. This no longer remains true.

In actual fact, I voted to avoid an EU army. This hasn't happened. In hindsight, I now question why I even thought an EU army is even an issue. Whats so bad about having 27 allies and the most powerful army on the planet? But the exclamation marks and capital letter mail headlines had me thinking this was a disaster.

I actually voted to avoid 70 million Turks turning up on my doorstep. Despite the fact they are are decades away from meeting EU criteria to join the bloc.

One of the reasons I voted to stop further risk of immigration was the strain on our public services. This however, was not a lie. But the dirty little secret? The leave campaign convinced me it was because there was too many people coming from the EU. It wasn't that at all . It was and still is a result of poorly funded public services caused by Tory austerity. I was young, I didn't know better.

I actually voted to regain sovereignty. I was 24 at the time. Got to be honest, didn't really even know what sovereignty was, all I know is the daily mail made me think we had to have it, at whatever cost.

Again, hindsight taught me we have a veto for major changes. Hindsight taught me EU laws are a tiny percentage of our laws. And the ones they DID enforce, actually make a lot of sense. But the daily mail told me "How very dare they".

We are now three years down the line. My worst fears havent come true, nor was there any real risk of them happening.

But one fear I didn't expect, was to be poorer and now this looks like a certainty. see most think tank studies. The fact that 40 billion will be wiped off our GDP to save a supposed (absolute lie) £350m per week?

All this caused by what was the actual project fear, the leave campaign.

Three years have changed me. Older, wiser and reading papers that don't have divisive rhetoric.

If I'm so passionately remain, after being so passionately leave, I do wonder just how many swing voters who voted out now live every day with regret, like me.

Democracy is about flexibility and changing opinions based on current affairs. Stop stealing my democracy and let me fix the sh1t I helped create.






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Well done for not digging in deeper, as you can see, many find it easier to just keep on pretending it will come good eventually.