[Politics] Brexit

[Wrong-Direction]

So anybody voting leave is in fact ignorant and can only be doing so because they are thick? Okay.......

My generalisation is a bit kinder. Here goes. Anybody voting Remain is doing so primarily because of the economic uncertainty and a nagging concern that they personally will be worse off financially. They will NOT be doing it because they approve of the EU, its methods, its organisation or its aims for the future. In this case it really is all about the money.

I'll put it a different way, everyone has their own motives.

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[Cadiz Seagull]

One thing is for sure. The EU will be different after the referendum.

If we leave it will cause the main countries all kinds of problems, Germany, France, Spain and others all have significant anti EU movements in their countries and these movements will all get stronger. The EU could actually break up; not because the UK is essenial and it won't work without us but because all other eurosceptic voters will be in a much stronger position.

If, as I suspect, we stay in, the vote will be close and it will send a message to Brussells that they will have to change. Normally this message would just be ignored and the Merkels and Hollandes of this world would just let things carry on as they were. But not this time, the clamour for change from voters will be unstoppable.

So the choice isn't between stay in the EU as it is today or go our own way, it is stay in the EU and be part of the reforms or go our own way and let them get on with it.

 

[5ways]

One thing is for sure. The EU will be different after the referendum.

If we leave it will cause the main countries all kinds of problems, Germany, France, Spain and others all have significant anti EU movements in their countries and these movements will all get stronger. The EU could actually break up; not because the UK is essenial and it won't work without us but because all other eurosceptic voters will be in a much stronger position.

If, as I suspect, we stay in, the vote will be close and it will send a message to Brussells that they will have to change. Normally this message would just be ignored and the Merkels and Hollandes of this world would just let things carry on as they were. But not this time, the clamour for change from voters will be unstoppable.

So the choice isn't between stay in the EU as it is today or go our own way, it is stay in the EU and be part of the reforms or go our own way and let them get on with it.

Exactly. A vote to remain is not a vote for the status quo. Like the Times editorial said we should lead in Europe not have it make decisions on our behalf.

 

[looney]

I'm hearing Leave have 2% lead on yougov, thats one which has a remain slant.

 

[looney]

Exactly. A vote to remain is not a vote for the status quo..

Yes it is, it will rubber stamp their project.

 

[Steve in Japan]

This is written by an journalist who is voting to remain, but unlike many seems to have genuinely given it some thought. I don't agree with his decision but that's bye the bye - I thought it was very interesting. And it kind of debunks the whole Racist Cretins vs Money-grabbing Corporate Apologists thing. It highlights some of the discussions we should perhaps have been having.

https://medium.com/@jackshenker/an-alternative-euref-reading-list-944be09f3327#.bl43ywnzd

 

[Wrong-Direction]

If and that's a big IF we do leave the EU, I hope we go somewhere warm like the Caribbean.

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[beorhthelm]

Exactly. A vote to remain is not a vote for the status quo. Like the Times editorial said we should lead in Europe not have it make decisions on our behalf.

we cant lead Europe because the UK isnt, never has and never will be on the same page as the rest of Europe. we are an island and were a global empire, which colours our view: we are more outward looking while never having had a foreign occupation in living memory. while europe and EU is fundementally about protectionism we are economic libertatians and want to see world trade flourish (yes there are costs, but in the national psyche, this wins over). thats why we've never really settled in europe, with our major policy of the 80-90's to embrace expansion of the EU, to diminish the hegemony of France/Germany, while increasing the opportunities to trade within the EU confines.

 

[surrey jim]

I'm hearing Leave have 2% lead on yougov, thats one which has a remain slant.

Recent polling if you are interested

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opini..._Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

No you're quite right. Ex-footballers are quite high on my list of "go to" sources on the referendum. Once Joey Essex gives his verdict I'll be ready to vote.

Sol Campbell has said he is backing leave.

That's good enough for me to vote stay

 

[looney]

Recent polling if you are interested

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opini..._Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

Cheers, it says 2%for yesterday.

 

[pb21]

Recent polling if you are interested

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opini..._Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

Still 10%+ of people undecided, when and how will they make up their minds?

 

[Two Professors]

I've also got this list of Nobel prize winners in economics if you're interested:

Economic issues are central to the UK referendum debate. We believe that the UK would be better off economically inside the EU. British firms and workers need full access to the single market. In addition, Brexit would create major uncertainty about Britain’s alternative future trading arrangements, both with the rest of Europe and with important markets like the USA, Canada and China. And these effects, though one-off, would persist for many years. Thus the economic arguments are clearly in favour of remaining in the EU.
George Akerlof
Kenneth Arrow
Angus Deaton
Peter Diamond
James Heckman
Eric Maskin
James Mirrlees
Christopher Pissarides
Robert Solow
Jean Tirole

Blimey,I actually found one that isn't American,or living there.He's Greek,and they know loads about economics

 

[hans kraay fan club]

You're choosing to miss his point.

Hundred / Thousands of the world's leading experts in economics, politics, law, business, the environment and medicine have come out and explained why they think it is in Britain's best interests to stay within the EU. The Leave campaign has scoffed, and rubbished their views ("We've had enough of 'experts'" / "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?"). If you are not going to listen to learned / trained / qualified people in their respective fields, then you may just as well listen to the views of David sodding Beckham, because frankly, you* are CHOOSING to be ignorant.

*not actually YOU - but those dismissing 'experts'.

So anybody voting leave is in fact ignorant and can only be doing so because they are thick? Okay.......

As seems the way of this thread, you've not read what was written. Of course everyone voting leave is not doing so because they are thick. I never said that, at all. I said that some (encouraged by Gove, etc) are actually CONCIOUSLY / DELIBERATELY choosing to ignore the views of experts in specific fields (economics / business / medicine / environment). Moreover, some are counting that very expertise as a negative.

Its actually astonishing. It really is.

(Some genuinely are thick. The guy in Southampton on Saturday that was shouting down a guy with Remain pamphlets "**** off mate, we've got enough P*k*s here already". He really was thick. But then that is the astounding level of ignorance, that Farage and co have been more than happy NOT to correct - again, see the poster of the Syrian refugees, as an example)

My generalisation is a bit kinder. Here goes. Anybody voting Remain is doing so primarily because of the economic uncertainty and a nagging concern that they personally will be worse off financially. They will NOT be doing it because they approve of the EU, its methods, its organisation or its aims for the future. In this case it really is all about the money.

It is definitely in part, about the money. Not MY money specifically - but the nations economic wellbeing (of course that affects me, as it does us all). I genuinely believe we will all be better off in. The best case if we go it alone, is that it will be 'okay'. The worst case is a disaster. Doesn't seem an intelligent gamble.

But the economics is only a part of it. I quite like European co-operation, on all things. It seems far preferable to engaging in trade wars (or real ones, for that matter).

 

[5ways]

Blimey,I actually found one that isn't American,or living there.He's Greek,and they know loads about economics

Bloody foreigners eh?

 

[pb21]

Half of Leave voters believe EU referendum will be rigged

These brexiters really are a paranoid bunch arent' they!

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/06/21/half-of-leave-voters-believe-eu-referendum-will-be-rigged

 

[East Preston Gull]

These brexiters really are a paranoid bunch arent' they!

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/06/21/half-of-leave-voters-believe-eu-referendum-will-be-rigged

It will be neck and neck until a mysterious box of postal votes get found in box in Islington. [emoji106]

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[Two Professors]

Brexiters: Do NOT trust experts!

*Beckham comes out for Remain*

Brexiters: What does he know? He’s not an expert.

Did he give uh a speech uh?Has he uh like finished uh yet?Where uh are we uh Vic?

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Did he give uh a speech uh?Has he uh like finished uh yet?Where uh are we uh Vic?

Stop trying to get your post count up you loser!

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[Two Professors]

I choose to ignore 'experts' that are so good at their predicting they still have to work for a living.I choose to ignore people who no longer live in this country to avoid paying taxes.I choose to ignore politicians who change with the wind direction and lie.I choose to ignore the people who just want immigration from wherever to provide a source of cheap labour to parasites.That doesn't leave many to listen to,just honest,decent,hard working British people,and if that makes me a racist litlle englander in some bigots eyes I don't really give a toss!