[Politics] Brexit

[Stat Brother]

I think someone that genuinely believes leaving the EU is best for our country (maybe not Boris then) is more likely to make it succeed.

Fair enough.
Personally I just don't see, no matter where the PM is on the leave-remain scale, how they would have got the deal right enough to appease enough MP's to get behind it.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think someone that genuinely believes leaving the EU is best for our country (maybe not Boris then) is more likely to make it succeed.

So you think that's the key to getting the EU to renege on their principles. I have to say, I'm not entirely convinced

And what do you think this leave PM would have done about ireland/NI then?

 

[ManOfSussex]

I think someone that genuinely believes leaving the EU is best for our country (maybe not Boris then) is more likely to make it succeed.

The problem with that is most of them jumped on the bandwagon 5 minutes before the referendum started, like Gove did. The genuine believers are the life long ones - Bill Cash, Nigel Farage, Neil Hamilton, Dennis Skinner, Bernard Jenkin - they're not going to be very good at making anything succeed frankly.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If leaving was so popular with the majority of people ( not just those who voted in the referendum) in this country, why have UKIP never won a parliamentary seat?
Surely, the best way of ensuring we leave, was to elect a party who’s sole raision d’etre was to leave the EU. Farage failed to win a constituency six times, in seats that were hand picked for their Euro scepticism.

Strange argument, the only time the public get a vote on the specific issue of EU membership a majority vote leave (17.4 million). People vote at General elections for a wide range of issues. It's probably also worth noting UKIP came first at the last European elections

 

[beorhthelm]

If leaving was so popular with the majority of people ( not just those who voted in the referendum) in this country, why have UKIP never won a parliamentary seat?
Surely, the best way of ensuring we leave, was to elect a party who’s sole raision d’etre was to leave the EU. Farage failed to win a constituency six times, in seats that were hand picked for their Euro scepticism.

sensible answer to sensible question is because most dont vote on single issue in GE. as much as "leave UK" was important to many, its commonly 4th or 5th priority to people after economy, education, health, law&order, pensions, welfare (no particular order).

 

[Stat Brother]

sensible answer to sensible question is because most dont vote on single issue in GE. as much as "leave UK" was important to many, its commonly 4th or 5th priority to people after economy, education, health, law&order, pensions, welfare (no particular order).

If only Farridge had said during those campaigns 'instead of sending the EU £350m we should spend it on the NHS, instead'.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I think someone that genuinely believes leaving the EU is best for our country (maybe not Boris then) is more likely to make it succeed.

There is a major difference between happen and succeed, which is surely the crux of the problem. It would appear that your success criteria amounts to nothing more than really, really, really wanting it to happen. Sadly there are a huge number of people and politicians who are not convinced and are not prepared to leap from the cliff with you.

Sovereignty - our government has been reduced to a complete laughing stock, incapable, incompetent and impotent. The opposition are dysfunctional in disarray and disunited.
Free Trade - Since 2016 the EU has completed Free Trade agreements with a number of key partners. Liam Fox has a deal lined up with Papua New Guinea, doubtless it was one of the easiest deals ever. The US, China and India are all adopting increasingly protectionist stances, leaving very few worthwhile partners.
Taking Back Control of Our Borders - With the obvious exception of the one that runs through Ireland, that was always there and was conveniently ignored by the snake oil salesman of 2016.

What does success look like?

 

[ManOfSussex]

Mmmmm so much for democracy then if voting to leave the EU is just a fantasy ....

It's why the referendum should never have been called. The genie isn't going to go back in the bottle, but the ill thought out fantasy that was in 2016 will be the root cause of any issues with democracy in the future.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Fair enough.
Personally I just don't see, no matter where the PM is on the leave-remain scale, how they would have got the deal right enough to appease enough MP's to get behind it.

That gets back to the point of an overwhelming Remain MP dominated parliament. Unfortunately, there is no happy centre ground between Leave or remain, trying to please both means everyone feels dissapointed/betrayed. Parliament should have let Brexiteers 100% own it, lead it and face the fall out if it went wrong.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

It's why the referendum should never have been called. The genie isn't going to go back in the bottle, but the ill thought out fantasy that was in 2016 will be the root cause of any issues with democracy in the future.

That gets back to the point of an overwhelming Remain MP dominated parliament. Unfortunately, there is no happy centre ground between Leave or remain, trying to please both means everyone feels dissapointed/betrayed. Parliament should have let Brexiteers 100% own it, lead it and face the fall out if it went wrong.

Both of these.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

So you think that's the key to getting the EU to renege on their principles. I have to say, I'm not entirely convinced

And what do you think this leave PM would have done about ireland/NI then?

They wouldn't care about the EU principles as they wouldn't be concerned about remaining as close as possible to the EU (May's strategy).

I expect they would have called the EU/Irelands bluff and not let them weaponise the border issue.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Parliament should have let Brexiteers 100% own it, lead it and face the fall out if it went wrong.

But there isn't a majority of Brexiters in Parliament.

By your reasoning you have a Brexit PM and cabinet and let them get on with without scrutiny?

 

[Stat Brother]

That gets back to the point of an overwhelming Remain MP dominated parliament. Unfortunately, there is no happy centre ground between Leave or remain, trying to please both means everyone feels dissapointed/betrayed. Parliament should have let Brexiteers 100% own it, lead it and face the fall out if it went wrong.

Or alternatively Parliament should have embraced the job it's been instructed to do and get on with it for the good of the country, as the one elected it actually is.

Both parties have sat there playing games with each other's divisions while everybody has been screaming 'just get on with it'.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It's why the referendum should never have been called. The genie isn't going to go back in the bottle, but the ill thought out fantasy that was in 2016 will be the root cause of any issues with democracy in the future.

I disagree, a specific democratic mandate was needed to settle our problematic relationship with the EU. From my perspective the whole EU ever closer union project is predicated on not giving any electorates any real say or ignoring them/ buying them off if they give the wrong answer. The referendum campaign was awful though, both sides could and should have done a lot better.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Or alternatively Parliament should have embraced the job it's been instructed to do and get on with it for the good of the country, as the one elected it actually is.

Both parties have sat there playing games with each other's divisions while everybody has been screaming 'just get on with it'.

What a remain MP thinks is 'good' for the country (mitigating the Brexit disaster) might not quite chime with the wishes of the leave majority though.

The party system is fracturing which is probably a good thing.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

But there isn't a majority of Brexiters in Parliament.

By your reasoning you have a Brexit PM and cabinet and let them get on with without scrutiny?

True but we could still have a Brexiteer PM, a Brexiteer majority cabinet and let them negotiate our exit. Parliament and the press would be scrutinising them.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

But there isn't a majority of Brexiters in Parliament.

By your reasoning you have a Brexit PM and cabinet and let them get on with without scrutiny?

They'd have got away with it too, if not for that pesky Miller woman.

(Not that the rabid Leavers would have been remotely content with the terms that the unscrutinised cabinet would have concocted)

 

[ManOfSussex]

I disagree, a specific democratic mandate was needed to settle our problematic relationship with the EU. From my perspective the whole EU ever closer union project is predicated on not giving any electorates any real say or ignoring them/ buying them off if they give the wrong answer. The referendum campaign was awful though, both sides could and should have done a lot better.

It wasn't ever going to settle anything though. It's not going to anytime soon either.

Withdrawal Agreement, no deal first or not, Common Market 2.0 is where we're most likely going to end up, assuming we don't remain.

As Amber Rudd pointed out a while back, freedom of movement is so 2016, so we just need to accentuate the positives of it to an illiterate electorate to sell it. Perhaps not on the side of a bus, but a subtle information leaflet like this perhaps pointing out facts to win people over:

Free movement of workers non European Common Market 2.0:



Free Movement of workers European Common Market 2.0:

 

[WATFORD zero]

They wouldn't care about the EU principles as they wouldn't be concerned about remaining as close as possible to the EU (May's strategy).

I expect they would have called the EU/Irelands bluff and not let them weaponise the border issue.

You haven't answered the question. As has become blindingly obvious over the last 3 years (and, to some, blindingly obvious before that), there are only 3 options

Would your Leaver PM

1. Keep NI in the Customs Union.
2. Keep Britain in the Customs Union.
3. Go for a Hard border between NI and Ireland ?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

There is a major difference between happen and succeed, which is surely the crux of the problem. It would appear that your success criteria amounts to nothing more than really, really, really wanting it to happen. Sadly there are a huge number of people and politicians who are not convinced and are not prepared to leap from the cliff with you.

Sovereignty - our government has been reduced to a complete laughing stock, incapable, incompetent and impotent. The opposition are dysfunctional in disarray and disunited.
Free Trade - Since 2016 the EU has completed Free Trade agreements with a number of key partners. Liam Fox has a deal lined up with Papua New Guinea, doubtless it was one of the easiest deals ever. The US, China and India are all adopting increasingly protectionist stances, leaving very few worthwhile partners.
Taking Back Control of Our Borders - With the obvious exception of the one that runs through Ireland, that was always there and was conveniently ignored by the snake oil salesman of 2016.

What does success look like?

I am saying let the people who really want and argue for Brexit 100% own it. Huge numbers but not a majority. The majority of voters don't believe leaving the EU = jumping off a cliff.