[Politics] Brexit

[WATFORD zero]

That gets back to the point of an overwhelming Remain MP dominated parliament. Unfortunately, there is no happy centre ground between Leave or remain, trying to please both means everyone feels dissapointed/betrayed. Parliament should have let Brexiteers 100% own it, lead it and face the fall out if it went wrong.

There is no happy centre ground available between softest of soft Brexits (of which TM's is an example) or 'No deal'. That's the real issue for Leavers.

And this really is nothing to do with Remainers

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Good grief …. that might be one of the silliest things (tough competition) I have ever read on this thread. You do know the PM voted Remain right?

The problems and why we have ended up here are numerous.

Just to point out it was Cameron (Remainer) who promised the referendum.

No planning for what would happen if there was a leave vote because of the arrogance of Remainers Cameron/Osborne.

Remainer Cameron running off leaving others to clear up the mess closely followed by Osborne.

The Conservative party with a majority of Remain MP's settled on a Remainer to lead the Brexit process yes supported by the main Brexiteers but I will come to that later. Many Remainers are honourable and respect democracy believing the result should be enacted on the basis of the campaign commitments (take back control - leave) so having a Remainer in charge not an issue at this point.

PM May (Remainer) set out the governments Brexit policy in the Lancaster house speech with clear red lines which is why the Brexiteers were initially supportive of May. The government and cabinet at this point seemed united.

PM May (Remainer) triggered article 50 but were we ready? (no)

The House of Commons is largely full of Remain MP's so unrepresentative of the wider electorate many of them view the referendum vote as a disaster to be mitigated /diluted, some even want to ignore it. But none of them in a parliament with a wafer thin majority helped cause this mess ... ?

PM May (Remainer) decided to call a general election for understandable reasons to be fair (see above) but instead of increasing the Tories majority she spectuarly f'd it up losing the governments majority.

Agree with you on all of that.

Btw I bet nearly every Remainer on this thread voted for parties who were more likely to be luke warm or hostile to Brexit and hoped to limit the government's majority/negotiating hand (well done take a bow).

Not me. Didn't like any of the names on my ballot, so I had to write another and cross the box I'd added.


Sadly, Emmanuel Macron of 'The Make Our Planet Great Again Party' counted as a spoilt vote

But what can you do, eh ?

PM May (Remainer) now relies on DUP causing more problems.

PM May (Remainer) begins to diverge from Lancaster house red lines and Tory party manifesto making concession after concession with very little in response, Brexiteers in cabinet/government begin to resign.

Corbyn (a life long 'principled' Brexiteer voting Remain), the Labour Party leadership with a vast majority of Remainer MP's are only interested in getting to another general election. Every decision re Brexit is about destabilising the government, not about national interest/finding consensus. No impact on the mess we find ourselves in though right?

More Brexiteers in government resign as the PM (Remainer) further dilutes the red lines Olly Robbins (Remainer) is running the negotiations.

Remainer cabinet ministers openly challenge the PM in a newspaper article and renege on Tory party electoral commitments.

True, although not sure about the last few words.

(No deal is better than a bad deal)

And that was the biggest mendacious piece of gas-lighting in this whole sorry saga.

A mantra repeated again and again and again, until this grand falsehood was glibly repeated and accepted as fact.


In reality, there is no deal bad enough to be worse than *no deal*. No deal capable of doing so much damage. A country killer. Treasonous in the harm it will inflict.

Many threaten to resign. This has no impact on the mess though right?

It's most of the Tory MP Brexiteers who are the only ones in parliament standing up for commitments made by the Leave side during the referendum and in the manifesto they were elected on. Suggesting they should just rubber stamp any sh*t deal no matter how bad just to stop the remainers in parliament reversing Brexit is a very poor argument as it clearly shows Remainers are helping to cause the mess!

Just to say that Brexiteers aren't blameless but they haven't been running the show and never have been ... no matter how many people pretend otherwise.

And here we are, just 14 days until the country collapses.


All we can do now is use them wisely.

 

[golddene]

sensible answer to sensible question is because most dont vote on single issue in GE. as much as "leave UK" was important to many, its commonly 4th or 5th priority to people after economy, education, health, law&order, pensions, welfare (no particular order).

Think you've struck gold there, these are real reasons to elect representatives, the whole concept of leave/remain was so far down the scale that virtually no one even considered the choice until that c**t, Cameron, in an attempt to appease his/their detractors decided to open this particular Pandora's box, and just look at where it has lead to? We now have the most divided country since, well, ever ! and I do not think the lid will ever be possible to replace. What a total mess we have become.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

sensible answer to sensible question is because most dont vote on single issue in GE. as much as "leave UK" was important to many, its commonly 4th or 5th priority to people after economy, education, health, law&order, pensions, welfare (no particular order).

All these tweets are still on LeaveUK's twitter account. I think they had an effect on some people.

[tweet]1106522031376486400[/tweet]

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I am saying let the people who really want and argue for Brexit 100% own it. Huge numbers but not a majority. The majority of voters don't believe leaving the EU = jumping off a cliff.

As a remainer, I wanted that. But they all ran away. Johnson didn't stand, Davis didn't stand, Mogg didn't stand, Farage resigned his parties leadership, Leadsom was the only one who stayed in the race and she conceded to May before there was even a vote of members. Then Johnson and Davis got important roles in the cabinet and then both resigned to the back benches when things got tough. Complete abdication of responsibility all round

 

[Deleted member 22389]

All these tweets are still on LeaveUK's twitter account. I think they had an effect on some people.

[tweet]1106522031376486400[/tweet]

How does this add any value to the conversation here, apart from winding people up.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

How does this add any value to the conversation here, apart from winding people up.

It was in answer to one post by beorhthelm.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

So where are we now? Last week Parliament voted down May's deal, voted down No Deal, voted down a second referendum and voted down trying to find an alternative deal. Which covers the entire spectrum of possibilities!

There's roughly four camps, remainer Tories who are voting to leave the EU with May's deal; the ERG / DUP who want No Deal, Labour who want to find an alternative deal and the SNP / libdems / TIG who want a second referendum.

If I had to put money on it I reckon the ERG / DUP will blink first and May's deal will go through. Second most likely, if ERG stay stubborn there will be a GE and then labour will agree staying in the common market, backed by a ratification referendum. But I can't believe the ERG will allow that to happen. No deal has vanished because of the votes of last week, which is a shame from the remainer point of view as that's shutting the door on moderate tories panicking and doing anything to avoid no deal.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

So where are we now? Last week Parliament voted down May's deal, voted down No Deal, voted down a second referendum and voted down trying to find an alternative deal. Which covers the entire spectrum of possibilities!

There's roughly four camps, remainer Tories who are voting to leave the EU with May's deal; the ERG / DUP who want No Deal, Labour who want to find an alternative deal and the SNP / libdems / TIG who want a second referendum.

If I had to put money on it I reckon the ERG / DUP will blink first and May's deal will go through. Second most likely, if ERG stay stubborn there will be a GE and then labour will agree staying in the common market, backed by a ratification referendum. But I can't believe the ERG will allow that to happen. No deal has vanished because of the votes of last week, which is a shame from the remainer point of view as that's shutting the door on moderate tories panicking and doing anything to avoid no deal.

Wednesday's vote doesn't stop *no deal*.

It just says Parliament really, really, really doesn't want it.

We are 14 days from *no deal* catastrophe.

On Monday morning it will be 11 days away.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Wednesday's vote doesn't stop *no deal*.

It just says Parliament really, really, really doesn't want it.

We are 14 days from *no deal* catastrophe.

On Monday morning it will be 11 days away.

Parliament voted to extend article 50, EU will approve that. They'll keep on approving extensions until there is a deal. No Deal won't happen now, however much the looney right want it, and however much brexiteers deserve the pain that would come with it

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Parliament voted to extend article 50, EU will approve that. They'll keep on approving extensions until there is a deal. No Deal won't happen now, however much the looney right want it, and however much brexiteers deserve the pain that would come with it

We can hope.

But until that extension is formally asked for, and then signed off by the EU, we don't actually have it.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

There is no happy centre ground available between softest of soft Brexits (of which TM's is an example) or 'No deal'. That's the real issue for Leavers.

And this really is nothing to do with Remainers

Well that's not true, each new deal be it with Canada or Turkey or Japan or a myriad of other nations has differences with different priorities, different arrangemants, different levels of access to the single market. Sadly you have swallowed the Remain campaign narrative that we are a weak and insignificant country that the EU can dictate too. Unfortunately our (remain) negotating team appear to have the same mindset.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

As a remainer, I wanted that. But they all ran away. Johnson didn't stand, Davis didn't stand, Mogg didn't stand, Farage resigned his parties leadership, Leadsom was the only one who stayed in the race and she conceded to May before there was even a vote of members. Then Johnson and Davis got important roles in the cabinet and then both resigned to the back benches when things got tough. Complete abdication of responsibility all round

That's yet again just a woeful, rather childish, simplistic, misrepresentation oft repeated by hardcore remainers/the Guardian set. The real reasons why Brexiteers didn't end up in the top job or resigned are far more nuanced and about political realities than ' they ran away' .... play ground stuff.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Well that's not true, each new deal be it with Canada or Turkey or Japan or a myriad of other nations has differences with different priorities, different arrangemants, different levels of access to the single market. Unfortunately you have swallowed the Remain campaign narrative that we are a weak and insignificant country that the EU can dictate too. Unfortunately our (remain) negotating team appear to have the same mindset.

You're slipping into unicorn mode there. We can only comment on what's happening, not what others wish to have happened, and our brexit team, which included Davis, Johnson and Raab for large parts, were unable to get anything different

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

That's yet again just a woeful, rather childish, simplistic, misrepresentation oft repeated by hardcore remainers/the Guardian set. The real reasons why Brexiteers didn't end up in the top job or resigned are far more nuanced and about political realities than ' they ran away' .... play ground stuff.

Johnson backed out. Twice. We all saw it happen. There's no point moaning about brexiteers not being in charge when they didn't even try to be in charge

Ps I read the telegraph.

 

[Dorset Seagull]

We can hope.

But until that extension is formally asked for, and then signed off by the EU, we don't actually have it.

I’m fairly confident the EU will sign it off so they can give TM a fighting chance to get the deal through so they can get their grubby hands on the £39bn

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You're slipping into unicorn mode there. We can only comment on what's happening, not what others wish to have happened, and our brexit team, which included Davis, Johnson and Raab for large parts, were unable to get anything different

They were never in charge of the negotiations, the PM and her faithful sidekick Olly Robbins were running the show... which is partly why some of them resigned.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Johnson backed out. Twice. We all saw it happen. There's no point moaning about brexiteers not being in charge when they didn't even try to be in charge

Ps I read the telegraph.

Johnson didn't try to be in charge!.... Hilarious, that's been his main aim for the last few years. He was knifed by Gove we all saw it happen.

If you read the Telegraph you should be better informed.

 

[A1X]

[TWEET]785791938247012352[/TWEET]

 

[WATFORD zero]

Well that's not true, each new deal be it with Canada or Turkey or Japan or a myriad of other nations has differences with different priorities, different arrangemants, different levels of access to the single market. Sadly you have swallowed the Remain campaign narrative that we are a weak and insignificant country that the EU can dictate too. Unfortunately our (remain) negotating team appear to have the same mindset.

Ah, everyone is wrong except for you. I have to admit, we have got to this point sooner than even Meg expected