[Politics] Brexit

[Two Professors]

Don't forget to change before heading to The Den .....

Youth wing of the peoples vote?

 

[Two Professors]

This quote is from an OFSTED inspector telling moslems in Birmingham why their 8 year-olds have to learn about same sex couples.Wonder if she thinks it applies to the Referendum?

 

[cunning fergus]

The answer is the working classes have been hung out to dry by successive centrist policies for the last half century. The EU isn't responsible for that. You've even made the point Cooper is a fault when in power - finally a glimmer that you do know that the EU hasn't had an almighty influence over the fate of our politics.

It is almost ironic, that out of your desire for radicalism, a new party is about to be formed for more centrism. These boards are awash with the sentiment, and yet you are so fixated on Brexit, your political aims never come through, just a continual countering of arguments using your same old bookmarked references. Stick your neck out, paint an optimistic radical evolution of our politics post Brexit and how leaving will facilitate it.

I dont accept the charge, i have always blamed the uk politicians, all flavours for decades for the breakdown in trust that exists with the EU, and has since we joined. Ted Heath joined on a lie, he knew the direction of travel of the project and he never told the public, other sucessive leaders simply followed the same playbook.

To say that the EU has no “almighty influence” over our politics is absurd, how many PMs since we joined the EU have lost their jobs because of our membership of the EU? The truth of the matter is that the EU has slways had an almighty influence over our politics BUT UK politicians have never neen honest about it.

Only now has the mask slipped so that MPs with essentially diametric politic views on any other political matter are joining together to form a PRO EU party. This has mever happened before and tells you just how almighty the influence is andvhas been.

Furthermore i have long argued how out of the EU the UK could free itself of the capitalist free market constraints of the EU, this is not unavowed socialism but nationalising some assets, providing state aid to some industries, controlling our labour market and securing a fully public NHS are not off the policies of che guevara.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

No deal isn't and has never been 'on the table'.

And anyone not understanding that has never been involved in international trade negotiation where everyone knows what options everyone else has down to the finest detail. It's not like negotiating to buy a used car.

3 days of a dredger and 80 lorries and a dustcart going down the M20 still doesn't make 'no deal' possible and the UK and the EU both know this

Something I posted yesterday that you should be able to understand



There are lots of things that could happen on 29th March but leaving with 'no deal' is not one of them.

I would say that I'm a little surprised you could be so naive, but maybe not.

Don't forget, patience is a virtue

That is logical.


But it assumes Theresa of Borg and her ERG Collective puppetmasters are actually sane.


I don't believe they are.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Furthermore i have long argued how out of the EU the UK could free itself of the capitalist free market constraints of the EU, this is not unavowed socialism but nationalising some assets, providing state aid to some industries, controlling our labour market and securing a fully public NHS are not off the policies of che guevara.

Yet you never contest, or add to the debate on other political threads? This is the politics of the current Labour Party is it not, and while you are massively active every day on the Brexit thread, you never enter the debate regarding the policies you speak of disappearing unless those that want them fight for them. Why the obsession with spending so much of your time arguing the same points about Brexit when you could be countering the arguments against the politics you actually want!?

 

[pastafarian]

No deal isn't and has never been 'on the table'.

And anyone not understanding that has never been involved in international trade negotiation where everyone knows what options everyone else has down to the finest detail. It's not like negotiating to buy a used car.

3 days of a dredger and 80 lorries and a dustcart going down the M20 still doesn't make 'no deal' possible and the UK and the EU both know this

Something I posted yesterday that you should be able to understand

There are lots of things that could happen on 29th March but leaving with 'no deal' is not one of them.

I would say that I'm a little surprised you could be so naive, but maybe not.

Don't forget, patience is a virtue

Odd isn’t it. Whilst you in your bubble are saying no deal is impossible. Mr Juncker has only just said publicly "If no deal were to happen, and I cannot exclude this, this would have terrible economic and social consequences in Britain and on the continent, so my efforts are oriented in a way that the worst can be avoided. But I am not very optimistic when it comes to this issue,"

I suspect the President of the European Commission is rather more clued up than you on international negotiations, have you considered telling him no deal is impossible and asking him why he doesn’t understand he is wrong to believe leaving with no deal cannot be excluded?

And you went a bit quiet and swerved answering my question yesterday, have another go and try to stick to the specific point of your default WTO tariff rate, which you seem to want to avoid.

Try and stick to the question at hand.
You have accepted we set our own tariff rate ceiling commitment (bound rate) as part of our schedule and have accepted too we set our own applied rates which are not part of our schedule and which can be lower than the bound (ceiling) rate, even though you initially laughed at the notion of countries setting their own tariff rates.
Knowing now that you have already accepted that it is countries themselves (or trading blocs) that set their own import rates (both bound and applied) and knowing that it isnt the WTO that sets bound and applied import rates and imposes them onto nations, as you recognise we can change the tariff rate on all products anyway.
Which rate are you referring to as the “WTO default” one, the bound rate or the applied rate?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1098509687065141248?s=19

Quite.

 

[pastafarian]

Yet you never contest, or add to the debate on other political threads? This is the politics of the current Labour Party is it not, and while you are massively active every day on the Brexit thread, you never enter the debate regarding the policies you speak of disappearing unless those that want them fight for them. Why the obsession with spending so much of your time arguing the same points about Brexit when you could be countering the arguments against the politics you actually want!?

Dont wish to intrude on your private argument but over the years have seen CF saying his two cents worth on political issues on other political threads.......is it possible that you simply missed his input ? Cant believe you have read every political thread over the years, surely like most people there are long periods where you dont even visit NSC...........carry on

 

[Ernest]

Just a reminder who is responsible for all this

[tweet]1098537821240000512[/tweet]

 

[cunning fergus]

Yet you never contest, or add to the debate on other political threads? This is the politics of the current Labour Party is it not, and while you are massively active every day on the Brexit thread, you never enter the debate regarding the policies you speak of disappearing unless those that want them fight for them. Why the obsession with spending so much of your time arguing the same points about Brexit when you could be countering the arguments against the politics you actually want!?

If relevant and i have the time i am prepared to spend on here posting other views (politics or otherwise). I have been a member longer than you and i have got to approx. 20% of your posting record. I dont think i am massively active on this thread i like the sport, so if i can i will, thats it.

In my time i have been a long advocate of leave, i have never doubted the malign influence of the EU and its supporters in Parliament. If you consider the EU and its capitalist hand maidens in Govt and business, to be anti EU (in my view) is a visceral socialist ideological step.

I have been on plenty of threads re the Blair/Brown years, and they were pro EU tories. Blair removed clause 4 remember, an initial step in the 90s that bought us to this point.

 

[cunning fergus]

No deal isn't and has never been 'on the table'.

And anyone not understanding that has never been involved in international trade negotiation where everyone knows what options everyone else has down to the finest detail. It's not like negotiating to buy a used car.

3 days of a dredger and 80 lorries and a dustcart going down the M20 still doesn't make 'no deal' possible and the UK and the EU both know this

Something I posted yesterday that you should be able to understand



There are lots of things that could happen on 29th March but leaving with 'no deal' is not one of them.

I would say that I'm a little surprised you could be so naive, but maybe not.

Don't forget, patience is a virtue

You’re being silly.

No deal is walking away, in absolutely EVERY negotiation that is on the table, whether you are buying, selling or trying to arrive at a settlement.

We are in the latter, but walking away is what we can do. It is a cutting ones nose off to spite ones face move and therefore it is only to be deployed as a last resort.

Those wanting it off the table are either a) naive b) foolish or c) wanting to place the UK in a position of weakness.

I dont the the TIG are a) or b) they are virulently pro EU and therefore its c).

What one are you?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Furthermore i have long argued how out of the EU the UK could free itself of the capitalist free market constraints of the EU, this is not unavowed socialism but nationalising some assets, providing state aid to some industries, controlling our labour market and securing a fully public NHS are not off the policies of che guevara.

Be very careful. Those sentiments will be very difficult to digest as they don't fit the convenient image of the frothing at the mouth rabid right-winger so beloved by many in the remain camp. It will be sure to confuse a few and will not provide the comfort their prejudice's crave.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Reminds me of the most amazing twitter 'own'.


'Know all' asks twitter poster if 'he had read the Lisbon Treaty'. Twitter poster replies.... that he had written it! lol.

Actually, thinking about it, there is an even better twitter 'own'.



A different 'Know all' asked a different twitter poster if he knew anything about Estonia.... Twitter poster ( Toomas Ilves by the way ) replies... that he'd been foreign minister and also President!

The 'Know all' was so owned that they deleted their twitter account. lol.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Odd isn’t it. Whilst you in your bubble are saying no deal is impossible. Mr Juncker has only just said publicly "If no deal were to happen, and I cannot exclude this, this would have terrible economic and social consequences in Britain and on the continent, so my efforts are oriented in a way that the worst can be avoided. But I am not very optimistic when it comes to this issue,"

I suspect the President of the European Commission is rather more clued up than you on international negotiations, have you considered telling him no deal is impossible and asking him why he doesn’t understand he is wrong to believe leaving with no deal cannot be excluded?

Now I hate to be the one to break this to you and I hope that you are sitting down, as I know it will come as a shock, but Politicians (for all sorts of reasons) don't always tell the truth

And you went a bit quiet and swerved answering my question yesterday, have another go and try to stick to the specific point of your default WTO tariff rate, which you seem to want to avoid.

Try and stick to the question at hand.
You have accepted we set our own tariff rate ceiling commitment (bound rate) as part of our schedule and have accepted too we set our own applied rates which are not part of our schedule and which can be lower than the bound (ceiling) rate, even though you initially laughed at the notion of countries setting their own tariff rates.
Knowing now that you have already accepted that it is countries themselves (or trading blocs) that set their own import rates (both bound and applied) and knowing that it isnt the WTO that sets bound and applied import rates and imposes them onto nations, as you recognise we can change the tariff rate on all products anyway.
Which rate are you referring to as the “WTO default” one, the bound rate or the applied rate?

And, for the second time, here is your answer

It's good that you have finally taken an interest in the way the WTO operates, even if it is nearly 3 years too late !

(And Meg always told me you were a shy 'no dealer' so I am glad that's been cleared up)



I'll do this slowly, so you can understand.

These rates are set by the UK 'as confirmed by Gove'

TRUE BUT IRRELEVANT AS OUR SCHEDULES WILL NOT BE PASSED IN 38 DAYS.

We can choose different rates across different product lines.

TRUE BUT IRRELEVANT AS OUR SCHEDULES WILL NOT BE PASSED IN 38 DAYS.

Tariff rate commitments, (both ceiling rate and applied rate) are decided by the UK, together with quotas (which will help explain to you why there are the two rates). This is a method of controlling volumes of imports.

TRUE BUT IRRELEVANT AS OUR SCHEDULES WILL NOT BE PASSED IN 38 DAYS.

I'll try one last time.

Because we don't have any agreed schedules, and will not have in 38 days we will use the WTO 'default tariffs'. There is only one default tariff, because there are no quotas and, therefor, no method of controlling volumes. The UK still has some control. By product, we can decide to charge the default tariff or not charge the default tariff. And whatever we decide applies to all WTO members under the Most-favoured-nation (MFN) rules.


You can keep wittering on with whataboutisms for ever more, but these are the simple facts.

I have to say, entertaining though it is, the idea that everyone in the world charges whatever tariffs they like with no regard to anyone or anything else doesn't quite beat the technology, pixies and unicorns solution to the NI/Ireland border, but you should keep trying

 

[knocky1]

Looks like the Peter Kyle/Wilson Amendment will save the day.

 

[WATFORD zero]

You’re being silly.

No deal is walking away, in absolutely EVERY negotiation that is on the table, whether you are buying, selling or trying to arrive at a settlement.

We are in the latter, but walking away is what we can do. It is a cutting ones nose off to spite ones face move and therefore it is only to be deployed as a last resort.

Those wanting it off the table are either a) naive b) foolish or c) wanting to place the UK in a position of weakness.

I dont the the TIG are a) or b) they are virulently pro EU and therefore its c).

What one are you?

If you think that walking away from negotiations and going 'no deal' in 37 days time with no agreed WTO schedules, no infrastructure, no procedures, no IT infrastructure, no systems to collect or manage tariffs and no staffing in place is still an option, I would suggest that maybe it's not me 'being silly'

 

[pastafarian]

Now I hate to be the one to break this to you and I hope that you are sitting down, as I know it will come as a shock, but Politicians (for all sorts of reasons) don't always tell the truth
:

Wonderful, so Juncker is lying when he says no deal is possible and you are telling the truth when you say no deal is impossible.........genius

And, for the second time, here is your answer
:

It isn’t an answer as you are going off on a tangent yet again onto tariff rate quotas and uncertified schedules and avoiding sticking to the question at hand and your "WTO tariff rate" and still avoiding saying what your “WTO tariff” is, try and answer the question put to you without going off on a tangent. If you still will not say which of the two rate types (bound and applied) you are referring to as the Default WTO tariff rate, look at it another way.


Bound Tariff Rates
The Bound (ceiling) rates as part of our 715 page submitted schedule are contained in here.
http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2018-0770/UKs_Goods_Schedule_at_the_WTO.pdf

Applied Rates
Can be set lower than the bound rate but not yet published as we don’t know deal or no deal,

WTO default tariff Rates
This is your differing third option
Can you please provide a list of or link to the default import tariff rates made by the WTO themselves, that are according to you different to the applied and bound rates we make and that you say we will be forced to use instead of our own bound and applied rates, even though we and others set our own import rates(both bound and applied)?
Preferably from the WTO tariff database on the WTO website itself and not just a list of numbers off the internet.

I have to say, entertaining though it is, the idea that everyone in the world charges whatever tariffs they like with no regard to anyone or anything else doesn't quite beat the technology, pixies and unicorns solution to the NI/Ireland border, but you should keep trying

This is daft as you have already acknowledged countries set their own import rates,both the ceiling rate and the applied rate,for example imports on shoes into the EU are set by the EU at 8%,where as Japan sets imports of shoes at between 20%-30% , its a bit mad to now say countries do not set their own import rates......have you told Gove?

Anyway im back off to the hospital so i look forward to you supplying the WTO import tariff rates that they set themselves by the time i get back.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Now I hate to be the one to break this to you and I hope that you are sitting down, as I know it will come as a shock, but Politicians (for all sorts of reasons) don't always tell the truth



And, for the second time, here is your answer



I have to say, entertaining though it is, the idea that everyone in the world charges whatever tariffs they like with no regard to anyone or anything else doesn't quite beat the technology, pixies and unicorns solution to the NI/Ireland border, but you should keep trying

So let me get this right. The following people have said no deal is an absolute possibility ( and the list isn't exhustive ) :

Junker
May
Tusk
Barnier
Corbyn
Cable
Bank of England Governor
Bank of England Deputy Governor
The Irish PM
The Deputy Irish PM
The Irish Finance Minister
Hammond
Starmer
Fox
James Dyson
Numerous political commentators across the whole spectrum of the press
Macron
Merkel
The Dutch PM
The CEO of Aviva
Gove
The ERG
The First Minister of Scotland
The CBI
The IOD
A multitude of UK MPs
The head of the SMMT
The head of HMRC
Barclay
Johnson
Davies

Yet you, some retired small business person in Wales with some fake crystal ball knows better than all these people ( and others ) and dismisses it with "Politicians don't always tell the truth" ? Remarkable, utterly remarkable.

Do tell - what gives you this great in sight and knowledge that all this people closer to the process don't have ?

 

[WATFORD zero]

So let me get this right. The following people have said no deal is an absolute possibility ( and the list isn't exhustive ) :

Junker
May
Tusk
Barnier
Corbyn
Cable
Bank of England Governor
Bank of England Deputy Governor
The Irish PM
The Deputy Irish PM
The Irish Finance Minister
Hammond
Starmer
Fox
James Dyson
Numerous political commentators across the whole spectrum of the press
Macron
Merkel
The Dutch PM
The CEO of Aviva
Gove
The ERG
The First Minister of Scotland
The CBI
The IOD
A multitude of UK MPs
The head of the SMMT
The head of HMRC
Barclay
Johnson
Davies

Yet you, some retired small business person in Wales with some fake crystal ball knows better than all these people ( and others ) and dismisses it with "Politicians don't always tell the truth" ? Remarkable, utterly remarkable.

Do tell - what gives you this great in sight and knowledge that all this people closer to the process don't have ?

Don't fret, you've only got 37 days to wait until you find out I was right all along

Patience is a virtue.

And WALES ? Now that is hurtful

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Looks like the Peter Kyle/Wilson Amendment will save the day.

If it guarantees an end to *no deal* madness, I'll be popping the English fizzy wine.