[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

If my referendum on how to leave is a nice idea lets have it. How would you remainers vote?

A/ leave accepting the withdrawal agreement
or
B/ leave with no deal

Every single version of being not in the EU is better than being in it.
No Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change.........always scope for being more out than in.

Parliament has rejected Mays deal, with the biggest Government defeat in history, and is dead against No Deal, because they are both very bad for Britain, and you want those as the only options in a referendum?
I think I will stick with Parliament thanks, they might well **** us up, but not quite so deliberately as you would have them allow us to.

 

[pastafarian]

Such a referendum question wouldn't be permitted because "No Deal" is not something which could get through the electoral commission, as it would involve reneging on international treaties ratified by the UK Parliament and by other legislatures (notably the Irish and US ones). The only version of Leave which would be deemed palatable is May's deal, meaning that in order for a contrast the only other option which could be permitted is Remain.

If there is no withdrawal agreement in place the treaties cease to apply on march 30, we have therefore left with no withdrawal deal in place.
Stop believing idiots on twitter. A deal or no deal referendum would still be legally non binding, it would not force other legislation to be renaged on. Parliament is sovereign, if Parliament acted on its result, they would legislate for it and repeal where necessary.

 

[A1X]

If there is no withdrawal agreement in place the treaties cease to apply on march 30, we have therefore left with no withdrawal deal in place.
Stop believing idiots on twitter. A deal or no deal referendum would still be legally non binding, it would not force other legislation to be renaged on. Parliament is sovereign, if Parliament acted on its result, they would legislate for it and repeal where necessary.

I didn't say we couldn't leave with No Deal, I was pointing out that in your referendum scenario "No Deal" could never be on a ballot paper. The UK Government cannot put forward to the electorate through referendum anything which involves the UK reneging on international treaties (in this case the GFA). Those are the rules of the game.

 

[pastafarian]

Parliament has rejected Mays deal, with the biggest Government defeat in history, and is dead against No Deal, because they are both very bad for Britain, and you want those as the only options in a referendum?
I think I will stick with Parliament thanks, they might well **** us up, but not quite so deliberately as you would have them allow us to.

Yes those are the two options i want..........the voters delivered a result to Leave. If parliament fails in its job to deliver the result and cant decide if we should leave with a deal or no deal, then let the people decide it for them and parliament can play no part except to legislate for the decision they were given.............leave with a deal or leave with no deal........what would you vote for?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

[TWEET]1093078886076870656[/TWEET]

The facebook advertisement feed needs to be shut down in the UK - until Kremlin funded ads are marked as such - and it just be left as a site to post holiday snaps and photos of food.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Meanwhile....


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-engla...witter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews

The "core spending power" of councils will rise by £1.3bn or 2.8% to £46.4bn - which includes money raised if councils increase their tax by the maximum 3% allowed and collect strong amounts from rents and business rates.

However, the central grant they get from government will drop by around £1bn on the current financial year.

BBC social affairs correspondent Michael Buchanan said council budgets would shrink by almost 6%, meaning more services would have to be cut.

The independent Institute for Fiscal Studies calculates that poorer council areas will lose more money that richer authorities.

 

[The Clamp]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...fGicKV-Pn3dTwoc-JVhNELZY4lM6XJWJwUssOwCXX4Vgc

 

[pastafarian]

I didn't say we couldn't leave with No Deal, I was pointing out that in your referendum scenario "No Deal" could never be on a ballot paper. The UK Government cannot put forward to the electorate through referendum anything which involves the UK reneging on international treaties (in this case the GFA). Those are the rules of the game.

Stop believing twitter, parliament is soverieign, if it wants a no deal option on a ballot it can.............it already did..............Leave the EU on the original ballot was according to article 50 which clearly states when you decide to leave, if no agreement is reached the traties cease to apply and you have left with no deal.

 

[Baldseagull]

Yes those are the two options i want..........the voters delivered a result to Leave. If parliament fails in its job to deliver the result and cant decide if we should leave with a deal or no deal, then let the people decide it for them and parliament can play no part except to legislate for the decision they were given.............leave with a deal or leave with no deal........what would you vote for?

Ok, I would vote for the deal. Least damaging option, and over the course of negotiations we get the chance to elect a government that could switch us closer to a Norway type arrangement.
Will you vote in my Fantasy Referendum?

A. Mays plan C Deal. (will look almost exactly like plans A and B)

B. Remain.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

Excellent piece on The Maybot...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...3EOwF2K7gUrbtSvmxSQ88gItUURz8nTr3DXdOwUjxy2M0

 

[Baldseagull]

Stop believing twitter, parliament is soverieign, if it wants a no deal option on a ballot it can.............it already did..............Leave the EU on the original ballot was according to article 50 which clearly states when you decide to leave, if no agreement is reached the traties cease to apply and you have left with no deal.

It also says the period can be extended, yes I know they also voted through the withdrawal act that had a date on it, but that act also includes the possibility of amending that date.

 

[pastafarian]

Ok, I would vote for the deal. Least damaging option, and over the course of negotiations we get the chance to elect a government that could switch us closer to a Norway type arrangement.
Will you vote in my Fantasy Referendum?

A. Mays plan C Deal. (will look almost exactly like plans A and B)

B. Remain.

And after we have left if future governments want to take us closer to the EU after getting public support via a referendum no one will argue against democracy....not even leavers..........a democratic vote to rejoin after we have left must be respected.......its a shame remoaners dont understand this as they try to scupper the leave vote before it is finalised
But yes, i agree. Your referendum is a fantasy. We have already decided to Leave, there is no need for another remain option in a how we should leave referendum.

 

[A1X]

Stop believing twitter, parliament is soverieign, if it wants a no deal option on a ballot it can.............it already did..............Leave the EU on the original ballot was according to article 50 which clearly states when you decide to leave, if no agreement is reached the traties cease to apply and you have left with no deal.

Except there are rules about what can and can't be put on a referendum ballot paper. Parliament is sovereign but it is not above the rules.

 

[pb21]

more direct democracy suits me fine

Direct democracy just leads to division and with that naturally increasing divide and rule, it s not a constructive way to proceed IMO.

 

[Baldseagull]

And after we have left if future governments want to take us closer to the EU after getting public support via a referendum no one will argue against democracy....not even leavers..........a democratic vote to rejoin after we have left must be respected.......its a shame remoaners dont understand this as they try to scupper the leave vote before it is finalised
But yes, i agree. Your referendum is a fantasy. We have already decided to Leave, there is no need for another remain option in a how we should leave referendum.

Less of a fantasy than yours with No Deal on the ballot, come on, fairs fair, I played your fantasy referendum, you play mine.

 

[pastafarian]

Except there are rules about what can and can't be put on a referendum ballot paper. Parliament is sovereign but it is not above the rules.

If parliament wanted a binary referendum on leaving the EU with a deal or leaving the EU without a deal in place it would word the referendum question and answers accordingly. We have already had a referendum where the two known legal repercussions of voting leave (deal or no deal) applied

 

[Pavilionaire]

No one knows what effect particular lies on either side had on voting intentions. You say 700,000 votes swayed by the NHS bus claim I could say 500,000 votes swayed by the immediate recession and half a million more unemployed claim.

We were also told no deal is better than a bad deal although May seems intent on reneging on that promise too.

Agree with your last point I bet they can't believe their luck how weak and inept our negotiating strategy has been ... unfortunately for them and us, the deal is so poor it couldn't even get through the HoC, to no one's surprise.

The HoC rejected May's deal by a record 230 votes. By definition that has to be a Bad Deal. I don't see that a time limit on the backstop is going to make it a Good Deal all of a sudden, so if No Deal is better than a Bad Deal right now it looks like we're crashing out.

I just watched Greg Clarke taking questions in a parliamentary sub-committee and one MP made the point it can take 6 weeks for container ships from the Far East to reach the UK, so if Parliament hasn't reached agreement by 15 Feb then those ships are leaving not knowing what customs arrangements will be in place when they dock.

 

[pastafarian]

Less of a fantasy than yours with No Deal on the ballot, come on, fairs fair, I played your fantasy referendum, you play mine.

Mine is a democratic extension of a democratic vote, yours is fantasy bullshit for losers....a losers referendum......i wont be playing.
You have already voted for the deal though in a deal or no deal vote...........no need for a further referendum.

 

[CHAPPERS]

The HoC rejected May's deal by a record 230 votes. By definition that has to be a Bad Deal. I don't see that a time limit on the backstop is going to make it a Good Deal all of a sudden, so if No Deal is better than a Bad Deal right now it looks like we're crashing out.

I just watched Greg Clarke taking questions in a parliamentary sub-committee and one MP made the point it can take 6 weeks for container ships from the Far East to reach the UK, so if Parliament hasn't reached agreement by 15 Feb then those ships are leaving not knowing what customs arrangements will be in place when they dock.

He also said he'd resign if No Deal became policy, which you have to assume it is on the 15th if there is no agreement. He also would not be alone. Next Friday could be interesting for the government.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Now Liam Fox says the government haven't decided what their policy on tariffs would be in a No Deal scenario, which either makes him a liar or completely inept.