[Politics] Brexit

[Westdene Seagull]

Er...I am well aware of b. So why is it ok in one election and not another?

..... the same system WAS used. In a GE you have a single vote and you put it against the option you want. Then the option with the greatest number of votes in your area ( in this case your area is a constituancy ) wins. In the referendum you had a single vote and you put it against the option you wanted. Then the option with the greatest number of votes in your area ( in this case the area was the UK ) wins. How is that different ? Strange I didn't see you moaning on here about the voting system BEFORE you lost.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Liam Fox: We can't have any of our own trade deals if we are in a customs union.
People: Have you made any trade deals for after Brexit?
Liam Fox: No.
People: You must have some preliminary trade deals ready in waiting?
Liam Fox: No.
People: Has anyone confirmed they would replicate the EU trade deals for the UK?
Liam Fox: No.
People: Have you got anything at all lined up post Brexit whatever that may be?
Liam Fox: No.

That's reassuring then.

Also in the news, Boris Johnson, with no sense of irony whatsoever, claims there is an 'elite conspiracy' over Brexit.

But there is not enough brexiteers in the cabinet

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Clearly a no-deal Brexit is a lose-lose - 100% certainly in the short term and about 99% probable in the longer term. So of course the Germans (the French, the Polish etc) will suffer. But on this one - to flip the Basil Fawlty analysis of the war - we started it. What would our Red, White and Blue Bexit friends be saying if it were, say Germany, playing our current role and f****** the rest of the EU - including us - about? They would - I venture - be splenetic.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

There must be some version of leave that you would find less desirable than remaining though.

If leave was stay in the customs union as Labour is proposing then I support remain.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So leave no deal, leave May's deal and remain would be ok on a referendum. Glad you agree.

How on earth did you get that assumption out of my post No I don't agree - I'll repeat no remain option should be on the paper.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

There must be some version of leave that you would find less desirable than remaining though.

I hesitate to post an anecdote but I had coffee yesterday with my oldest friend, a well-off, safely retired Telegraph-reading anarchist-Brexiter who voted Leave mainly because he thought the bureaucrats needed a kick up the bottom.

To this end his preferred Leave option is No Deal. He doesn't want a second referendum but if there was one and 'No-deal' wasn't an option, he'd vote Remain. So there we have it. First choice: Leave variant; second choice: Remain; hated third choice: Leave variant

Boris Johnson has said something similar. Views like this suggest that the result of the In/Out binary referendum in 2016 is misleading.

 

[daveinplzen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i97FkO3d_lU

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I'll repeat no remain option should be on the paper.

If leave was stay in the customs union as Labour is proposing then I support remain.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Of course it should. Why should it not be!?

God it's like Groundhog Day ..... because as a nation we've already decided to leave. Now the options should be how.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

God it's like Groundhog Day ..... because as a nation we've already decided to leave. Now the options should be how.

But you have just posted above, that if the propose Leave outcome was Leave plus customs union, you would rather Remain.

You don't know what you want.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I'm not sure what is so confusing to you :

1. I don't beleive there should be a second vote
BUT
2. If there is one then it should only be leave options
BUT
3. If the options were only Leave but stay in the customs union or remain full members I'd select remain under protest

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I'm not sure what is so confusing to you :

1. I don't beleive there should be a second vote
2. If there is one then it should only be leave options
3. If the options were only Leave but stay in the customs union or remain full members I'd select remain under protest

So, we've established that your preference is as follows: Leave hard >> Remain >>>> Leave with CU

Point 1 - fair enough. I disagree (obviously) but its valid.

Point 2 - if there are only Leave options (Leave No Deal and Leave with full CU) and your choice loses - which it undoubtedly would, because every Remain voter would vote for it, and the Leave vote would be divided - you actually end up with your LEAST desired outcome of the three.

Brilliant. You're a WINNER.

 

[ManOfSussex]

There is one, but the EU can't make us sign it. The best that the EU can do with what is on the table, is say the UK can leave the backstop arrangement unilaterally, but if it did so, everything would revert to WTO arrangements, which is in fact, what the situation is.

I appreciate what you're saying is purely hypothetical, but as I said yesterday in regards to the backstop, The EU could not countenance altering any aspect of it as the Fine Gael coalition government falls in Dublin if they were to. Which it would if there was a no deal Brexit too.

 

[A1X]

"You have to be clear about what it's all about: Great Britain is the fifth largest export market in Germany. More than 750,000 jobs in Germany depend on exports to the UK." - DIHK (German Chamber of Commerce and Industry) President Eric Schweitzer.

Yesterday: Chaotic Brexit would shake German business, industry group warns
https://www.ft.com/content/9d33140e-1a3a-11e9-b93e-f4351a53f1c3

December: Germany's BREXIT PANIC: Trade unions WARN of drastic consequences of ‘CHAOTIC’ no deal
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...rman-industry-manufacturing-trade-theresa-may

Yesterday: German industry 'looking into the abyss' as Brexit fears mount
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/01/17/german-industry-looking-abyss-brexit-fears-mount/

Two days ago: German business warns of Brexit 'chaos'
https://www.thelocal.de/20190116/german-business-warns-of-brexit-chaos

October: German Industry Warns of ‘Massive Crisis’ From No-Deal Brexit
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...y-warns-of-massive-crisis-from-no-deal-brexit

They are arguing, quite forcefully, and sensibly, for a deal.

For exactly the same reasons, in the event of No Deal they will argue even harder for an FTA and other voluntary arrangements on trade, and as quickly as possible.

& They will be right to.

So they're talking about it? That doesn't sound quite the same as forcing the EU's hand for a deal, does it?

 

[pb21]

God it's like Groundhog Day ..... because as a nation we've already decided to leave. Now the options should be how.

As a nation we decided to leave because leave at the time could possibly mean:

a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11...

or any combination of the above, or more.

It was a lovely, it could be anything you could imagine it to be. Free trade unicorns, sovereign fairies, space age new jobs and a magical money tree, all mixed up and smashed around a bit. Now we know leave actually means:

a,g,r,u,6 and a whole load of unexpected negative and dirty imaginary numbers.

No one ever voted for that, we don't even know how many people want a,g,r,u,6 and a whole load of unexpected negative and dirty imaginary numbers. Mogg doesn't, Corbyn doesn't.

 

[A1X]

God it's like Groundhog Day ..... because as a nation we've already decided to leave. Now the options should be how.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If members of the public have a problem with members of parliament then, as you have many times observed, they can vote them out. The formal accountability of MPs to voters has not changed - it remains as it always has done in our representative democracy. What has changed in recent days is that the mother of parliaments has regained some of the powers that have been lost over the years to an overweening executive - the bullying patronage of our political parties has been going on for decades but May's contemptible (literally) regime has been the worst.

If Brexit was reversed there would doubtless be some public disturbance. I understand that. Some MPs who feel that Brexit is not in the national interest may well have voted for May's deal on the basis that any such disturbances would be even less in the national interest. I understand that as well - although it does come dangerously close to mob rule acquiescence.

The latest YouGov poll shows that Remain's lead over Leave is now an historically high 11 points. That cannot be irrelevant surely. You have often said you have only contempt for those in favour of a further consultation but with the same poll implying that well over 20 million people want one surely most sane people will find it difficult to loathe a majority of the voting public. Perhaps the rioting would be less than some fear. Or hope.

Is it less or more relevant than the latest ComRes poll showing 53% saying the referendum result should be respected and there should be no second referendum compared to 29% who disagree?

 

[Baldseagull]

If leave was stay in the customs union as Labour is proposing then I support remain.

Would you not want to be able to express that, if there was another referendum, particularly if Labour Leave was just up against your preferred leave otherwise?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Liam Fox: We can't have any of our own trade deals if we are in a customs union.
People: Have you made any trade deals for after Brexit?
Liam Fox: No.

People: Has anyone confirmed they would replicate the EU trade deals for the UK?
Liam Fox: No.
People: Have you got anything at all lined up post Brexit whatever that may be?
Liam Fox: No.

That's reassuring then.

Also in the news, Boris Johnson, with no sense of irony whatsoever, claims there is an 'elite conspiracy' over Brexit.

People: Have you made any trade deals for after Brexit?
Liam Fox: Yes

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ee-to-transition-trade-agreement-after-brexit

People: Has anyone confirmed they would replicate the EU trade deals for the UK?
Liam Fox: Yes

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ee-to-transition-trade-agreement-after-brexit

People: Have you got anything at all lined up post Brexit whatever that may be?
Liam Fox: Yes

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ee-to-transition-trade-agreement-after-brexit

 

[A1X]

So he said 40 and he's produced one sort of trade deal (it's not really a trade deal but let's go with it). So what about the UK's biggest trading partners excluding the EU?