[Politics] Brexit

[Bold Seagull]

There's an interesting tweet from journalist Nick Cohen this morning. "Corbyn is a disaster socialist. He won't offer a workable solution because he wants Brexit to create as much damage as possible so the masses will turn to the far left, and he can blame any problems his government faces on the Tories."

When I suggested that theory on NSC a few months ago, I was told in no uncertain terms that, whatever one thought of Corbyn, he wouldn't be wishing economic disaster on the country to prove a particular point.

It's good to know that at least one political journalist is thinking on the same lines as me - I really don't think it's that far-fetched.

This was based on his piece in the Observer.

I wondered whether he and Owen Jones get on in the journalists tea room at Observer/Guardian HQ?

 

[fanseagull]

70 days to go.


On our way

or not.... unless you have the power to tell the future

Keep up though, we are now onto how we might be on our way as well as whether it really is worth it.

Any views or are you equally sanguine about all alternatives?

 

[Hotchilidog]

There's an interesting tweet from journalist Nick Cohen this morning. "Corbyn is a disaster socialist. He won't offer a workable solution because he wants Brexit to create as much damage as possible so the masses will turn to the far left, and he can blame any problems his government faces on the Tories."

When I suggested that theory on NSC a few months ago, I was told in no uncertain terms that, whatever one thought of Corbyn, he wouldn't be wishing economic disaster on the country to prove a particular point.

It's good to know that at least one political journalist is thinking on the same lines as me - I really don't think it's that far-fetched.

No such thing as an interesting tweet from Nick Cohen. Utter garbage.

 

[Baker lite]

or not.... unless you have psychic powers.

We leave on March 29th, that’s set in law,unless the establishment elite decide to break the law..


On our way.

 

[fanseagull]

We leave on March 29th, that’s set in law,unless the establishment elite decide to break the law..


On our way.

.... or revoke/delay article 50.
No preference on how we leave then - if we do?
That's interesting.

 

[Bold Seagull]

May simply must forge a one-issue coalition, however briefly, on a proposal to be taken back to Brussels. But the evidence of Tory party history is that this may be her last act in politics. If so it would be an honourable one.

We still seem miles from there. What is unique today is that both May and Corbyn are clearly suffering inner demons of inflexibility. The power of charm is a long underrated quality in British politics; that and the gift of courtesy towards those with whom one disagrees. Britain has party leaders who seem bereft of both these qualities.

A very good historical piece by Simon Jenkins.

 

[pastafarian]

You’ve fallen hook line and sinker.

Besides which, perhaps we should pool more of our powers. Frankly I’d rather have a collective of some of Europe’s top politicians making some sane decisions for us than the utter shambles of a U.K. government we have doing it now.
And perhaps the U.K. people need some help with decisions too, look at the cluster**** created when we were last given an important decision to make.
I welcome our European overlords. Give them more power I say.

I simply made a factual statement regarding the existence of competences and directly applicable law, you decided to dismiss this as ballocks. I am pleased you have now after some reflection and probably looking it up decided its not ballocks and you now recognise that there are indeed treaty competences and directly applicable EU laws and that they do exist after all.
I am saddened to see you now wish more of this type of pooled sovereignty and an increase of these type of directly applicable laws that our parliament cant decide on made by “some of Europe’s top politicians” and more legaslative powers ceded to Brussels from Westminster, you are free to want this of course, but fortunately there was a vote to put your wish on hold and reverse it.
This doesn’t however excuse your mistake that you originally thought competences and directly applicable legislation was a load of rubbish and ballocks. You really should try and educate yourself before making such claims. It’s a shame you have only found out now they exist and you didn’t know about them before you voted in the referendum considering they are fundamental to the parliamentary sovereignty debate……….not that you seem to care much anyway about the issue.

 

[pastafarian]

This short selling practice you dislike and it’s affect on the lives of ordinary people..........can you recall George Soros and how he made over a billion on Britain’s exit from the ERM?

He must be the living embodiment of the very “worst sort of tossers” to quote you.......or maybe not?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...rexit-campaign-best-for-britain-a3809821.html

Capitalists eh?

I believe thats what you call in the business a put down

 

[ManOfSussex]

There's an interesting tweet from journalist Nick Cohen this morning. "Corbyn is a disaster socialist. He won't offer a workable solution because he wants Brexit to create as much damage as possible so the masses will turn to the far left, and he can blame any problems his government faces on the Tories."

When I suggested that theory on NSC a few months ago, I was told in no uncertain terms that, whatever one thought of Corbyn, he wouldn't be wishing economic disaster on the country to prove a particular point.

It's good to know that at least one political journalist is thinking on the same lines as me - I really don't think it's that far-fetched.

I think that the chaos and disaster of a no deal exit is, here-and-now, the only way he can get into No.10. If that was to happen, the no deal advocating Tory toffs will be exposed for what they are and will be easy targets. That said, calling for a 2nd vote before that or not, Labour's ambiguity on Brexit can't last forever and splits will emerge, as they obviously will with The Tories.

An election as scheduled in 2022 (or as near to it as possible) would be his best bet in that scenario, but if we were to exit in March with no deal the mess at Westminster (not to the mention the country at large and Ireland) will be far, far greater than now to the point that today will look positively cordial and cooperative in comparison and an election will be needed then. It's a hell of a hospital pass to want to receive though, hence I still have my very strong doubts it's what he actually wants.

 

[Mtoto]

If he wants Brexit he is agitating for a left wing cause.

Not a great image/back story I grant you, however Lennon went to prison for his crimes, whereas the Duke of Wellington who royally took this piss out of tax payers expenses for years didn’t.

The benefits of powerful friends eh?

He is an extremist, agitating for an extremist cause. You may not like the fact that Robinson & every other ultra-nationalist and/or racist in the country are among your fellow-travellers on the Brexit bus, but to attempt to deny it and claim Brexit for the left is risible.

Brexit as a policy was a child of the far right which found support on the far left too, albeit for different reasons. Corbyn, for instance, sees the EU as a corporatist, neo-liberal conspiracy to take over the continent, while on the other side of the spectrum, it is despised for not being neo-liberal enough. Look at the dividing lines within the parties: hard left MPs and hard right MPs, the descendants of Major's ******** and in some cases the actual ******** themselves, are Brexiteers. Moderate Labour MPs and moderate Conservatives are, or were, opposed, along with what's left of the centre.

It's often said that Britain is split down the middle on Brexit. It isn't. The extremes have split from the centre, after decades of push-pull in a FPTP electoral system which sends political thought on both sides further towards the edge and eviscerates the centre in the process. When the pendulum swings, as it always does in the end, it swings a little further back the other way. It's pretty much inevitable when you allow a party with as little as 37pc of the vote to form a *majority* government.

So don't ignore your fellow passengers. Be honest, and embrace them - and then enjoy the ride.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

.... or revoke/delay article 50.
No preference on how we leave then - if we do?
That's interesting.

He doesn't care.

As suggested a few pages back, there are a good many people, for whom 'winning' is now far more important than a successful outcome for the nation.

 

[Baldseagull]

Come on, let’s deal with facts, CAP is not benefitting anyone but the rich and powerful, that’s my view and Greenpeace are on my side of this argument.....

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...-millions-eu-subsidies-go-richest-landowners/

As for CAP representing a socialist policy, I can go for a degree of state protection and subsidy when it’s needed, however it’s only socialist if the poor benefit in comparison to the rich.

https://iea.org.uk/blog/abolish-the-cap-let-food-prices-tumble

What CAP does though, is benefit the rich at the expense of the consumer and correspondingly the poor suffer.

It could not be a more Tory inspired policy if it tried, even the most ardent EU supporter should accept it, but some are so “hardcore” they don’t. Quite sad.

Can we agree that agriculture needs to be maintained, here and in the rest of Europe? To lose it would make us fully dependent on imports and therefore vulnerable, to natural disaster and war in other parts of the world, or even trade disputes. The EU has tried different ways in which to ensure farmers can make a living, and protect the countryside at the same time, and every way has brought criticism and problems in some way. It would be fantastic to remove all subsidy, and one day we will get there, but opening the UK up to all imports without tariff as has been suggested by Mogg would kill UK farmers, removing subsidy with tariffs and other barriers might work, but only if farms become more intensive, and this is bad for the environment. The EU has problems, the CAP is one of them, but leaving it just changes one problem for a bigger one.
The EU and it's member states should work to find a better policy, we can look at any socialist regime in the world and find a problem policy.

 

[Gwylan]

This was based on his piece in the Observer.

I wondered whether he and Owen Jones get on in the journalists tea room at Observer/Guardian HQ?

Thanks for that, I hadn't seen it before.

Yes, that's pretty much my theory but Cohen is the only other person that I've seen espousing it

 

[ManOfSussex]

As suggested a few pages back, there are a good many people, for whom 'winning' is now far more important than a successful outcome for the nation.

They sort of remind me of the final scene, of the final episode of 'Allo, 'Allo! in which Edith turns to Rene and asks - 'What will be become of us?' to which Rene replies, reassuringly - 'Don't worry my love, whatever happens, we'll be on the winning side' and she smiles, reassured.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Wrong thread .

 

[Commander]

Looks like the poll now sits at about 52% / 48%

Glad to see progress is being made and people are listening to the arguments both sides and starting to change their minds

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Looks like the poll now sits at about 52% / 48%

Glad to see progress is being made and people are listening to the arguments both sides and starting to change their minds

Yet another who didn't read the question.

This poll tells you NOTHING about how many people may have changed their minds.

I voted 'we will leave' on this poll, and am more firmly pro-Remain than I ever was.

 

[Baldseagull]

Out of interest do you also remember the time it was proven the official Remain campaign and also the Liberal Democrats broke electoral rules with regard to referendum spending and were subsequently fined by the electoral commission for doing so. Or is your memory selective

https://www.electoralcommission.org...18,000-for-breaches-of-campaign-finance-rules

If all parties are breaking the rules, does that make it a fair referendum? More evidence of rule breaking is more evidence for voiding the result.
If you like, we can agree that a certain amount of overspending is just a yellow card offence. But there must be some Red card offences I reckon, and some offences that should void the result.

Would should be the penalty for playing a Russian ringer?
Would having a fan of one side, in charge of VAR be an issue?

 

[Commander]

Yet another who didn't read the question.

This poll tells you NOTHING about how many people may have changed their minds.

I voted 'we will leave' on this poll, and am more firmly pro-Remain than I ever was.

Erm...

Yes I think we will, in some form. No, I don't think we should.

One thing is for certain, whatever happens it's not going to please everyone, and the country will be as divided as ever.

The lesson to learn from all this is don't leave big, complicated decisions in the hands of the masses. The masses are morons.

So did I.

 

[The Clamp]

I simply made a factual statement regarding the existence of competences and directly applicable law, you decided to dismiss this as ballocks. I am pleased you have now after some reflection and probably looking it up decided its not ballocks and you now recognise that there are indeed treaty competences and directly applicable EU laws and that they do exist after all.
I am saddened to see you now wish more of this type of pooled sovereignty and an increase of these type of directly applicable laws that our parliament cant decide on made by “some of Europe’s top politicians” and more legaslative powers ceded to Brussels from Westminster, you are free to want this of course, but fortunately there was a vote to put your wish on hold and reverse it.
This doesn’t however excuse your mistake that you originally thought competences and directly applicable legislation was a load of rubbish and ballocks. You really should try and educate yourself before making such claims. It’s a shame you have only found out now they exist and you didn’t know about them before you voted in the referendum considering they are fundamental to the parliamentary sovereignty debate……….not that you seem to care much anyway about the issue.

More bollocks and assumption. What a clown you are, Pasta. What a clown your are.