[Politics] Brexit

[Raleigh Chopper]

It's a club, looking out for the interests of the 27 countries that will still be members once we're not involved. And it is not zero-sum: the result of *our* decision to leave is that both sides will bleed, but since we made the choice, and we are so much smaller, it's inevitable that we will bleed more. In all honesty, what did you expect? It might look like "bullying" or "punishment" from where you're sitting, but when put together they are about 8-9x bigger than the UK economically. And where you are sitting is also where you voted to sit, so it's a bit late to start whingeing about it now. You won. Accept the consequences, don't bleat about bullying.

They didn't "ignore" Cameron, they just didn't see why they should make any further exceptions for the UK when we had signally failed to use the sensible restraints on freedom of movement of labour which were there all along.

And we are not slaves to Europe, or anything close to it - at least, we weren't when we were not only part of the club, but one of its most important and respected members. We didn't give up sovereignty - we *chose* to pool it with our European neighbours (and, in some cases, former battlefield foes) to maintain and defend our collective economic clout on the world stage relative to the US, China etc and hopefully avoid any more of the wars which cost millions of Europeans their lives in the 20th century. The UK had a veto, exemptions on all sorts of things (Euro, Schengen), even a rebate on our contributions. Do slaves have that?

We are much, much closer to servitude now that we have voted out - or rather, we will be if May's deal gets through. Again - you won. Stop shifting the blame and get used to it (or get campaigning for another vote to stop the insanity).

That's it, thread closed, didn't take too long did it.
Thank the lord, we can all get back to fish puns and talking about poo.

 

[portlock seagull]

What an absolutely terrific post.

Terrifically patronising too...

 

[portlock seagull]

What a load of old tosh.We 'chose' to pool our sovereignty?I didn't.I voted to join a common market for trading goods and services.And we didn't start the wars you mention either.Would you like a clue as to who did?

I couldn't be bothered to make such points given the tone of the original but nice to read someone could

 

[Two Professors]

It must be becoming apparent to even the most unaware that the ERG and their supporters are being shown up as the completely inept, incompetent, unskilled, inexpert, amateurish, unprofessional, bungling, blundering, clumsy, unproficient, inadequate, substandard, inferior, ineffective, deficient, ineffectual, wanting, lacking, out of touch bunch of complete buffoons that they really are.

These people are meant to be professional politicians and yet don't have the faintest grasp of the simple basics of the case they are trying to argue.

How on earth did so many naive and gullible people in this country get to be taken in by this absolute bunch of clowns

(I am aware that not every leave voter was taken in by these shysters 'no deal' fantasy).

Who did you nick that from?Too many big words for you.It also sounds like a perfect description of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

But they're two different things. Nothing ironic therefore unless you can't tell the difference. I like fries. But I hate chunky chips.

I beg to differ, there is a principle at work. The Scots use the argument that their particular specific case can be justified when their unfairly weighted vote is applied in the UK, but complain when other parts of the UK outweigh their voice.

One definition of irony is:

"incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs"

And I believe that fits with my usage.

 

[pastafarianstwin]

To work or for education at the very least. Yes. I don't see why anyone has a problem with that. People should be able to compete with each other for jobs without being held back by barriers.

Are you suggesting too in your global free movement there should be no physical barriers anywhere too like border crossing checks as currently practised in the EU Schengen zone to allow full freedom of movement?

 

[pastafarianstwin]

They didn't "ignore" Cameron, they just didn't see why they should make any further exceptions for the UK when we had signally failed to use the sensible restraints on freedom of movement of labour which were there all along.

What a laughable observation, EU immigration has remained high even after the transitional period on the EU8 ( which we didn’t enforce) would have expired if we did, and remained high when we did enforce the transitional period of Romania and Bulgaria. Significant numbers of Romanians and Bulgarians arrived even when we did have those countries on a restraint. The 7 year transitional period isn’t worth anything, and measures to check on jobseekers months after they have gained entry is not adequate border control in anyones book. The fact of the matter is the only way to control immigration is to leave the EU.

We didn't give up sovereignty - we *chose* to pool it with our European neighbours

And that notion of pooled sovereignty was the primary reason ( if you believe the polls) that the public decided to vote to Leave. Quite simply millions just did not want the ever increasing levels of pooled sovereignty and the increasing competence of The EU to legislate on areas where our parliament had no say and when finally given the opportunity to express this in a vote they did

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's a club, looking out for the interests of the 27 countries that will still be members once we're not involved. And it is not zero-sum: the result of *our* decision to leave is that both sides will bleed, but since we made the choice, and we are so much smaller, it's inevitable that we will bleed more. In all honesty, what did you expect? It might look like "bullying" or "punishment" from where you're sitting, but when put together they are about 8-9x bigger than the UK economically. And where you are sitting is also where you voted to sit, so it's a bit late to start whingeing about it now. You won. Accept the consequences, don't bleat about bullying.

They didn't "ignore" Cameron, they just didn't see why they should make any further exceptions for the UK when we had signally failed to use the sensible restraints on freedom of movement of labour which were there all along.

And we are not slaves to Europe, or anything close to it - at least, we weren't when we were not only part of the club, but one of its most important and respected members. We didn't give up sovereignty - we *chose* to pool it with our European neighbours (and, in some cases, former battlefield foes) to maintain and defend our collective economic clout on the world stage relative to the US, China etc and hopefully avoid any more of the wars which cost millions of Europeans their lives in the 20th century. The UK had a veto, exemptions on all sorts of things (Euro, Schengen), even a rebate on our contributions. Do slaves have that?

We are much, much closer to servitude now that we have voted out - or rather, we will be if May's deal gets through. Again - you won. Stop shifting the blame and get used to it (or get campaigning for another vote to stop the insanity).

A very well thought out and well presented post. But I wouldn't go for a career in the diplomatic service

 

[WATFORD zero]

Who did you nick that from?Too many big words for you.It also sounds like a perfect description of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

Case rests M'lud

 

[WATFORD zero]

Alright Ben Hur, calm down. Slaves to Euro Project then, and btw I didn't mean in the galley-rowing literal sense for gaawds sake. Anyway, there's slaves and there's slaves. Some of the roman slaves were very well to do with lots of rights don't you know. Still slaves. Think we're moving away from the point here: we can't leave without enormous self-harm, that's considerably clearer than 2 years ago so no need to get all sanctimonious about because no one could predict what's unfolded since. Best a 2nd vote when the terms are laid out nice and clear. Deal. No Deal. Or revert. Never too late unless you're a bigot of course.

Another sensible post. But I take issue with your no one could predict. I think Mystic Meg has said since the day after the referendum, that this is exactly what would happen

 

[Mtoto]

Alright Ben Hur, calm down. Slaves to Euro Project then, and btw I didn't mean in the galley-rowing literal sense for gaawds sake. Anyway, there's slaves and there's slaves. Some of the roman slaves were very well to do with lots of rights don't you know. Still slaves. Think we're moving away from the point here: we can't leave without enormous self-harm, that's considerably clearer than 2 years ago so no need to get all sanctimonious about because no one could predict what's unfolded since. Best a 2nd vote when the terms are laid out nice and clear. Deal. No Deal. Or revert. Never too late unless you're a bigot of course.

The Remain side warned repeatedly during the referendum campaign that a leave vote risked creating a situation in which we were out of the EU but still subject to its rules and with no say in future ones. In view of the huge disparity in economic power and reach between the UK and the other 27 - who will also still be enjoying all the benefits of single market membership - it's just basic maths.

 

[Mtoto]

Terrifically patronising too...

Perhaps you're just terrifically thin-skinned?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

What a load of old tosh.We 'chose' to pool our sovereignty?I didn't.I voted to join a common market for trading goods and services.And we didn't start the wars you mention either.Would you like a clue as to who did?

It's been said before but the concept of 'sharing sovereignty' was one of the recurring themes of the original referendum. The Daily Telegraph grumbled at the time that it seemed to be taking over the debate.Of course there was duplicity on both sides - there usually at such times - but I just don't believe that the British national and its spiky media are as naive and gullible as you imply - although in fairness, it's not just you. 'We was hoodwinked' is one of the great themes of the Brexit movement, an urban myth of 70s Britain designed to support that recurring vision of plucky Blighty fighting against the world.

The poster you respond to made no comment about whose fault the great wars of the 20th century were, but once again you feel the need to drag the issue up with a smirky sort of comment. We must know our history and learn from it. Most of us have a view on which of the six empires involved was most to blame for launching the 30 years of on-off conflict that wrecked the first half of the 20th century. (Mine is that it was the German one btw.) The European Union, whilst flawed in some respects, has done more than any other organisation to ensure that the circumstances of then will never be repeated across western Europe.

That's a heck of a legacy and people standing on the sideline whistling the Dambusters theme tune do nothing to detract from it. To the contrary.

 

[portlock seagull]

Perhaps you're just terrifically thin-skinned?

Or, as others have said, you lack diplomacy.

 

[portlock seagull]

Another sensible post. But I take issue with your no one could predict. I think Mystic Meg has said since the day after the referendum, that this is exactly what would happen

it was one of many possibile scenarios inc Aliens landing or Nick Knowles having a no.1 hit but no one could predict what would actually happen / remains to be seen. Sorry but to say otherwise is rubbish. We still don’t know. Crickey, even the vote leave wasn’t supposed to happen. Anyway, these are strange times so keep eye out for Aliens but I think we can safely say Nick Knowles will never have a no.1 hit. I was being silly obviously...

 

[WATFORD zero]

it was one of many possibile scenarios inc Aliens landing or Nick Knowles having a no.1 hit but no one could predict what would actually happen / remains to be seen. Sorry but to say otherwise is rubbish. We still don’t know. Crickey, even the vote leave wasn’t supposed to happen. Anyway, these are strange times so keep eye out for Aliens but I think we can safely say Nick Knowles will never have a no.1 hit. I was being silly obviously...

I think we will have to disagree about what was predictable. I'll dig out Meg's predictions tomorrow.

We are in complete agreement on Nick Knowles though.

 

[Two Professors]

It's been said before but the concept of 'sharing sovereignty' was one of the recurring themes of the original referendum. The Daily Telegraph grumbled at the time that it seemed to be taking over the debate.Of course there was duplicity on both sides - there usually at such times - but I just don't believe that the British national and its spiky media are as naive and gullible as you imply - although in fairness, it's not just you. 'We was hoodwinked' is one of the great themes of the Brexit movement, an urban myth of 70s Britain designed to support that recurring vision of plucky Blighty fighting against the world.

The poster you respond to made no comment about whose fault the great wars of the 20th century were, but once again you feel the need to drag the issue up with a smirky sort of comment. We must know our history and learn from it. Most of us have a view on which of the six empires involved was most to blame for launching the 30 years of on-off conflict that wrecked the first half of the 20th century. (Mine is that it was the German one btw.) The European Union, whilst flawed in some respects, has done more than any other organisation to ensure that the circumstances of then will never be repeated across western Europe.

That's a heck of a legacy and people standing on the sideline whistling the Dambusters theme tune do nothing to detract from it. To the contrary.

Sorry,but the question was about the Common Market.




As for attaching blame for the wars,if the poster raised the subject to imply the lack of wars is down to the EU (another piece of Remainhistory,fake news),then not to reply would be ignoring real historical fact.And yes,the Dambusters did help to defeat Nazi Germany.

 

[Two Professors]

I think we will have to disagree about what was predictable. I'll dig out Meg's predictions tomorrow

Why tomorrow?Can't you predict where you will find them?

 

[GT49er]

Most of us have a view on which of the six empires involved was most to blame for launching the 30 years of on-off conflict that wrecked the first half of the 20th century. (Mine is that it was the German one btw.) The European Union, whilst flawed in some respects, has done more than any other organisation to ensure that the circumstances of then will never be repeated across western Europe.

No, that was the UN, with a little help from NATO.

 

[nicko31]

Spain....