[Politics] Brexit

[ManOfSussex]

Heard Crispin Blunt (Tory Brexiteer) on Radio 5 live earlier talking about using the transition period to implement an orderly 'WTO no deal'

No wonder there's idiots on here that are confused.

How much more barrel can be scraped ?

Daniel Finkelstein's Times column today was of much the same bemusement:

On Tuesday David Davis, who after all was Brexit secretary and a leading figure in the drive to leave the EU, said something so extraordinary that I had to read it several times to make sure I hadn’t misunderstood. “If,” he said “we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it”.

But David, there won’t be a transition period if we don’t have a withdrawal agreement. The transition period is part of the deal. There’s no such thing as a no-deal transition period. One of the most important arguments against leaving with no deal is that we aren’t ready to leave without a transition period. How can you advocate no deal if you don’t appreciate one of its basic consequences?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...-skidded-off-the-road-without-a-map-89wnxtnvd

 

[portlock seagull]

Daniel Finkelstein's Times column today was of much the same bemusement:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...-skidded-off-the-road-without-a-map-89wnxtnvd

Be funny if it wasn't so terrifying!

 

[ManOfSussex]

[tweet]1064912107458699266[/tweet]

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If you want to believe that. It is just not worth my time. I could present an airtight tretise on freedom of movement and you would still reject it.

How can I reject what you believe ? Let's start with a simple one, you suggest extending FoM - care to suggest how far you extend this ?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

They've got 35 out of 59.



I agree Scotland is over represented in Westminster. It's not just The SNP - The 13 Scottish Tories are utterly crucial to The Government, as are Labour's 7 and the 4 to The Lib Dems - that's 1/3 of their parliamentary party.

Unfortunately post-Brexit, whatever you may think about it, Faslane, Coulport, Trident renewal and Scotland, it's possible independence or not, becomes all the more important as The UK tries to adjust to the new order of things.

Agreed.

 

[Ernest]

What was the theory behind that?

No deal = Status quo applies

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

It's not really ironic though is it - they're using their power in Westminster to become a recognised independent country (primary goal) within a 30ish strong European 'State' (secondary goal). They don't want to be a dependent country within the far smaller United Kingdom, that's no longer part of said European 'state'. Entirely different. And if that's what they want, let them have it. But they didn't the last time they voted. That said, quite 'a bit' has changed since

It is ironic to complain that a decision goes against the majority (of Scots) view but accept their own extra power as a tipping point for policies that would otherwise be made law, that the rest of the UK would implement without them.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It must be becoming apparent to even the most unaware that the ERG and their supporters are being shown up as the completely inept, incompetent, unskilled, inexpert, amateurish, unprofessional, bungling, blundering, clumsy, unproficient, inadequate, substandard, inferior, ineffective, deficient, ineffectual, wanting, lacking, out of touch bunch of complete buffoons that they really are.

These people are meant to be professional politicians and yet don't have the faintest grasp of the simple basics of the case they are trying to argue.

How on earth did so many naive and gullible people in this country get to be taken in by this absolute bunch of clowns

(I am aware that not every leave voter was taken in by these shysters 'no deal' fantasy).

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Everywhere.

So for example anyone from Libya could come to the UK if they liked just as long as they weren't a criminal or a 'bad' person ?

 

[Stat Brother]

So for example anyone from Libya could come to the UK if they liked just as long as they weren't a criminal or a 'bad' person ?

Are you suggesting the men who jumped out of the back of a lorry in Selsey last week will no longer have free movement?

They'll be disappointed to hear that.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

To work or for education at the very least. Yes. I don't see why anyone has a problem with that. People should be able to compete with each other for jobs without being held back by barriers.

Well done - you've just collapsed every developed countries infratructure and caused every poor country to go bankrupt due to brain drain. You really haven't thought out your policy have you ?

 

[pb21]

Well done - you've just collapsed every developed countries infratructure and caused every poor country to go bankrupt due to brain drain. You really haven't thought out your policy have you ?

Sounds a bit like the immediate and long term effects of Breixit on the UK

 

[ManOfSussex]

Are you suggesting the men who jumped out of the back of a lorry in Selsey last week will no longer have free movement?

They'll be disappointed to hear that.

and the Iranian Yachting Association who now seem to like honing their nautical skills ahead of the 2020 Tokyo Olympics by sailing into Folkestone whenever they like.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So keeping certain amounts of people in abject poverty with no access to education is a good thing!? If there is mass net migration in this scenario then it is not freedom of movement that is the issue. The problem is the massive inequalities, we need to sort them out as well. All bordering people off is doing is making sure we don't have to deal with the underlying problem!

Where have I said that keeping people in abject poverty is a good thing ? The way to deal with that isn't complete FoM - your suggestion. I agree we don't do enough to deal with the problem but your solution is idiotic.

 

[portlock seagull]

It is ironic to complain that a decision goes against the majority (of Scots) view but accept their own extra power as a tipping point for policies that would otherwise be made law, that the rest of the UK would implement without them.

But they're two different things. Nothing ironic therefore unless you can't tell the difference. I like fries. But I hate chunky chips.

 

[Mtoto]

This. I'm angry at the EU establishment, their belligerence and power is the forgotten wrong in all this mess. We're shackled and cannot break free, powerless to do anything unless we cut our hands off and risk bleeding to death. They ignored Cameron in 2016 so there's little hope they'd give improved concessions in return for remaining, even if that was an option. I'd vote remain if given a 2nd choice, knowing what we do now. And hope (wishfully in all probability) that we could change from within as you say. However, we're slaves to our Euro masters, perhaps that's the only real thing to come out of this - everyone should by now have realised this and hopes of a more autonomous, sovereign nation belong to the last century along with so much more regarding what Britain once was, including the 'United' Kingdom!

It's a club, looking out for the interests of the 27 countries that will still be members once we're not involved. And it is not zero-sum: the result of *our* decision to leave is that both sides will bleed, but since we made the choice, and we are so much smaller, it's inevitable that we will bleed more. In all honesty, what did you expect? It might look like "bullying" or "punishment" from where you're sitting, but when put together they are about 8-9x bigger than the UK economically. And where you are sitting is also where you voted to sit, so it's a bit late to start whingeing about it now. You won. Accept the consequences, don't bleat about bullying.

They didn't "ignore" Cameron, they just didn't see why they should make any further exceptions for the UK when we had signally failed to use the sensible restraints on freedom of movement of labour which were there all along.

And we are not slaves to Europe, or anything close to it - at least, we weren't when we were not only part of the club, but one of its most important and respected members. We didn't give up sovereignty - we *chose* to pool it with our European neighbours (and, in some cases, former battlefield foes) to maintain and defend our collective economic clout on the world stage relative to the US, China etc and hopefully avoid any more of the wars which cost millions of Europeans their lives in the 20th century. The UK had a veto, exemptions on all sorts of things (Euro, Schengen), even a rebate on our contributions. Do slaves have that?

We are much, much closer to servitude now that we have voted out - or rather, we will be if May's deal gets through. Again - you won. Stop shifting the blame and get used to it (or get campaigning for another vote to stop the insanity).

 

[hans kraay fan club]

It's a club, looking out for the interests of the 27 countries that will still be members once we're not involved. And it is not zero-sum: the result of *our* decision to leave is that both sides will bleed, but since we made the choice, and we are so much smaller, it's inevitable that we will bleed more. In all honesty, what did you expect? It might look like "bullying" or "punishment" from where you're sitting, but when put together they are about 8-9x bigger than the UK economically. And where you are sitting is also where you voted to sit, so it's a bit late to start whingeing about it now. You won. Accept the consequences, don't bleat about bullying.

They didn't "ignore" Cameron, they just didn't see why they should make any further exceptions for the UK when we had signally failed to use the sensible restraints on freedom of movement of labour which were there all along.

And we are not slaves to Europe, or anything close to it - at least, we weren't when we were not only part of the club, but one of its most important and respected members. We didn't give up sovereignty - we *chose* to pool it with our European neighbours (and, in some cases, former battlefield foes) to maintain and defend our collective economic clout on the world stage relative to the US, China etc and hopefully avoid any more of the wars which cost millions of Europeans their lives in the 20th century. The UK had a veto, exemptions on all sorts of things (Euro, Schengen), even a rebate on our contributions. Do slaves have that?

We are much, much closer to servitude now that we have voted out - or rather, we will be if May's deal gets through. Again - you won. Stop shifting the blame and get used to it (or get campaigning for another vote to stop the insanity).

What an absolutely terrific post.

 

[pb21]

We didn't give up sovereignty - we *chose* to pool it with our European neighbours (and, in some cases, former battlefield foes) to maintain and defend our collective economic clout on the world stage relative to the US, China etc and hopefully avoid any more of the wars which cost millions of Europeans their lives in the 20th century.

Somewhat ironically we potentially will be giving up our sovereignty, albeit temporarily (who knows how temporary though), as part of the Brexit process.

In addition the pooled sovereignty is really only guaranteeing that we stick to the rules which we agreed in order to trade etc.

I presume we will trade post Brexit and as part of that will have to agree trading rules; the situation will be effectively the same.

Its all just an illusion to hook people in.

 

[portlock seagull]

It's a club, looking out for the interests of the 27 countries that will still be members once we're not involved. And it is not zero-sum: the result of *our* decision to leave is that both sides will bleed, but since we made the choice, and we are so much smaller, it's inevitable that we will bleed more. In all honesty, what did you expect? It might look like "bullying" or "punishment" from where you're sitting, but when put together they are about 8-9x bigger than the UK economically. And where you are sitting is also where you voted to sit, so it's a bit late to start whingeing about it now. You won. Accept the consequences, don't bleat about bullying.

They didn't "ignore" Cameron, they just didn't see why they should make any further exceptions for the UK when we had signally failed to use the sensible restraints on freedom of movement of labour which were there all along.

And we are not slaves to Europe, or anything close to it - at least, we weren't when we were not only part of the club, but one of its most important and respected members. We didn't give up sovereignty - we *chose* to pool it with our European neighbours (and, in some cases, former battlefield foes) to maintain and defend our collective economic clout on the world stage relative to the US, China etc and hopefully avoid any more of the wars which cost millions of Europeans their lives in the 20th century. The UK had a veto, exemptions on all sorts of things (Euro, Schengen), even a rebate on our contributions. Do slaves have that?

We are much, much closer to servitude now that we have voted out - or rather, we will be if May's deal gets through. Again - you won. Stop shifting the blame and get used to it (or get campaigning for another vote to stop the insanity).

Alright Ben Hur, calm down. Slaves to Euro Project then, and btw I didn't mean in the galley-rowing literal sense for gaawds sake. Anyway, there's slaves and there's slaves. Some of the roman slaves were very well to do with lots of rights don't you know. Still slaves. Think we're moving away from the point here: we can't leave without enormous self-harm, that's considerably clearer than 2 years ago so no need to get all sanctimonious about because no one could predict what's unfolded since. Best a 2nd vote when the terms are laid out nice and clear. Deal. No Deal. Or revert. Never too late unless you're a bigot of course.

 

[Two Professors]

It's a club, looking out for the interests of the 27 countries that will still be members once we're not involved. And it is not zero-sum: the result of *our* decision to leave is that both sides will bleed, but since we made the choice, and we are so much smaller, it's inevitable that we will bleed more. In all honesty, what did you expect? It might look like "bullying" or "punishment" from where you're sitting, but when put together they are about 8-9x bigger than the UK economically. And where you are sitting is also where you voted to sit, so it's a bit late to start whingeing about it now. You won. Accept the consequences, don't bleat about bullying.

They didn't "ignore" Cameron, they just didn't see why they should make any further exceptions for the UK when we had signally failed to use the sensible restraints on freedom of movement of labour which were there all along.

And we are not slaves to Europe, or anything close to it - at least, we weren't when we were not only part of the club, but one of its most important and respected members. We didn't give up sovereignty - we *chose* to pool it with our European neighbours (and, in some cases, former battlefield foes) to maintain and defend our collective economic clout on the world stage relative to the US, China etc and hopefully avoid any more of the wars which cost millions of Europeans their lives in the 20th century. The UK had a veto, exemptions on all sorts of things (Euro, Schengen), even a rebate on our contributions. Do slaves have that?

We are much, much closer to servitude now that we have voted out - or rather, we will be if May's deal gets through. Again - you won. Stop shifting the blame and get used to it (or get campaigning for another vote to stop the insanity).

What a load of old tosh.We 'chose' to pool our sovereignty?I didn't.I voted to join a common market for trading goods and services.And we didn't start the wars you mention either.Would you like a clue as to who did?