[Politics] Brexit

[ManOfSussex]

I've always had a lot of time for Amber Rudd.

Amber Rudd, the former home secretary, led the warnings against a Canada-style deal yesterday when she argued that ministers should look again at membership of the single market.

“I’ve talked to a few colleagues and I reckon there are conservatively about 40 of us, who would not support a Canada-type deal,” she told the ITV programme, Peston. “But to be frank there are so many reasons a Canada-type deal doesn’t work, starting with the Irish border, going on to manufacturing, that I think we can make those arguments.

“That just reinforces the point that there is an impasse if the two wings of our party face up to the fact that we have these elements that differentiate us but the rebel group need to think again because I think we’ve only got one shot at a negotiated settlement.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...reaten-to-block-a-canada-style-deal-0jlbclfr3

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Thank you for that mature answer.

Now point me to any post I've ever made that even implies I would support the Norway option. I don't - if the options were stay or the Norway one then I would vote for stay.

I got the impression you were very much in favour of UKIP and the majority of what Farage says. When did you change your mind?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This is why the EU itself is partly culpable for the Brexit vote. People like [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] are being ignorant towards the native working classes if they can't see that what you say has been a problem ever since the iron curtain came down.

The idea of people moving where the money is, is nothing new - where cheap labour comes in, sleeps 20 to a house for a short period of time with the idea of sending the money back home. It's what "Auf Wiedersen Pet" was all about in the 80s. This isn't a problem when the free market area covers broadly similar economies, but that isn't the case with Eastern European economies. They were dreadfully poor by our standards and most are still way behind us, which has meant that we're getting cheap labour flooding our labour market, and it isn't reciprocated.

A simple and reasonable solution would have been to implement restrictions on free movement from poorer EU countries to richer ones until their economies caught up. Unfortunately, Call Me Dave framed it all wrong and with a selfish spin, and ended up with no concessions at all. To be honest, he'd left it too late anyway. Had he convinced other EU nations of the danger that unskilled labour in wealthy economies would become increasingly dissatisfied with the EU if this was allowed to continue, he might have convinced more that something needed to change.

This is true up to a point. We have the lowest unemployment for decades, at the moment, according to our Tory overlords. I heard there are 40K unfilled vacancies right now.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/unemployment-rate-lowest-in-over-40-years

It's a bit Shrodingers Brexit, isn't it? They come over here to leech our benefits and NHS, and/or they come over here to pinch our jobs.

 

[Stat Brother]

This is why the EU itself is partly culpable for the Brexit vote. People like [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] are being ignorant towards the native working classes if they can't see that what you say has been a problem ever since the iron curtain came down.

The idea of people moving where the money is, is nothing new - where cheap labour comes in, sleeps 20 to a house for a short period of time with the idea of sending the money back home. It's what "Auf Wiedersen Pet" was all about in the 80s. This isn't a problem when the free market area covers broadly similar economies, but that isn't the case with Eastern European economies. They were dreadfully poor by our standards and most are still way behind us, which has meant that we're getting cheap labour flooding our labour market, and it isn't reciprocated.

A simple and reasonable solution would have been to implement restrictions on free movement from poorer EU countries to richer ones until their economies caught up. Unfortunately, Call Me Dave framed it all wrong and with a selfish spin, and ended up with no concessions at all. To be honest, he'd left it too late anyway. Had he convinced other EU nations of the danger that unskilled labour in wealthy economies would become increasingly dissatisfied with the EU if this was allowed to continue, he might have convinced more that something needed to change.

As much as I don't want to go for 'easy stereotyping' but just who is going to do the cheap labour work, without the influx of migrant workers?

It's not like this is a new problem, people have always been moving (or forceably moved) to affluent countries, like ours, and done the hard graft the native populations turned their noses up at.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I've always had a lot of time for Amber Rudd.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...reaten-to-block-a-canada-style-deal-0jlbclfr3

Oh dear, and Boris has gone to all the trouble of preparing a 5,000 word document extolling the virtues of a Canada deal, all ready for the party conference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45673214


Maybe he forgets, it took Canada and the EU seven years to come to a deal, whereas we have weeks left.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

As much as I don't want to go for 'easy stereotyping' but just who is going to do the cheap labour work, without the influx of migrant workers?

It's not like this is a new problem, people have always been moving (or forceably moved) to affluent countries, like ours, and done the hard graft the native populations turned their noses up at.

Indeed, in the 1950s, we extended invitations all over the Empire/Commonwealth to come and help us rebuild after the war.

 

[The Clamp]

Oh poor old Nibble .... wrong as always. Why would I be angry - we're on course to leave the EU including the single market and customs union ..... despite the desperate attempts of some remainers. As for 'Nibble' and 'liar' .... it amuses me to point it out to you .... that you're really Nibble and a fully proven liar

Pfft.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Oh dear, and Boris has gone to all the trouble of preparing a 5,000 word document extolling the virtues of a Canada deal, all ready for the party conference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45673214


Maybe he forgets, it took Canada and the EU seven years to come to a deal, whereas we have weeks left.

Oh dear indeed. From that same Times article, there was also this on the free trade deal plan:

A senior figure in the Democratic Unionist Party said that the ERG’s Brexit strategy was “vague and contradictory”. Sammy Wilson, who has called for Mrs May to rip up her Chequers plan, said his party could not endorse the rival plan from Brexiteers, including David Davis and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

 

[Simster]

This is true up to a point. We have the lowest unemployment for decades, at the moment, according to our Tory overlords. I heard there are 40K unfilled vacancies right now.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/unemployment-rate-lowest-in-over-40-years

It's a bit Shrodingers Brexit, isn't it? They come over here to leech our benefits and NHS, and/or they come over here to pinch our jobs.

Indeed. I'm not saying it's all the fault of the EU, the fault lies with a useless uncaring and arrogant Tory party too.

It's not like the Tories have any sort of appetite to address the problem of zero hour contracts, for example. But then while a low skilled British worker might reasonably expect certain rights and job security, the Tories did and continue to do what they always do and looked the other way when their policies or inertia impacts the vulnerable. So while these zero hour contracts are exactly the sort of job that a transient migrant worker with minimal expenses from Eastern Europe will gobble up, our low-skilled people with families to feed don't want to work on zero hour contracts, and yet all they see is that East Europeans are taking the jobs anyway.

Moving out of the EU won't solve that problem unless it goes hand in hand with improved workers rights. Good luck getting dickheads like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson to campaign for that.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This childrens' programme in Ireland sums it up well. They have more understanding than all the UK MPs put together.

[tweet]1044985180253896704[/tweet]




I loved this reply.

[tweet]1045585816909742080[/tweet]

 

[ManOfSussex]

If you haven't seen it, this interview on C4 news this week by Shadow Minister for Northern Ireland Stephen Pound has caused great consternation in The Republic of Ireland and been well highlighted in the press there because it does appear to show a Westminster MP, talking in an English accent, about the Irish border issue................and actually knowing something about it.

 

[Simster]

As much as I don't want to go for 'easy stereotyping' but just who is going to do the cheap labour work, without the influx of migrant workers?

It's not like this is a new problem, people have always been moving (or forceably moved) to affluent countries, like ours, and done the hard graft the native populations turned their noses up at.

Oh I agree completely. But the nuance that this misses (and [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION]'s 1950s example) is that we have been unable to control exactly how many we should take in, the consequence of which is that so such cheap labour pours in that it starts to undercut people in jobs that WOULD be done by people in the UK.

As an example, about 10 years ago I knew of a Polish handyman who came here and went all over Reigate doing all sorts of jobs. He slept in cheap digs and supported his family at home. Obviously middle-class Reigate was happy enough getting their jobs done for half the going rate, but I doubt it went down quite so well in neighbouring blue collar Redhill, and there are no shortage of people prepared to do that work for reasonable rates.

It's exactly this sort of example that alienated enough people to swing the Brexit vote in the disastrous direction we are now heading, and it could have been solved if the EU hadn't ignored the problem and Call Me Dave had done a better job of presenting his case.

 

[Mtoto]

Simster, why do you feel the UK deserved "concessions" when we never bothered to use the significant powers to manage FoM that were there from day one?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-_b_13120104.html

 

[Thunder Bolt]

[tweet]1045436748568965125[/tweet]

 

[ManOfSussex]

Why do you think the UK deserved "concessions" when we never bothered to use the significant powers to manage FoM that were there from day one?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-_b_13120104.html

It's like anything to with immigration in this country, from the rudimentary Home Office WRS scheme for The A8 Accession countries in 2004, to the fact there's anywhere up to 1 million people in The UK illegally (all of whom will be from non EU countries) and it's enforcement, administration and the ability and resources to do it (or lack of it)

'Take back control of our borders' (With The UKBF 25% smaller than it was in 2010. Okay)

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Oh I agree completely. But the nuance that this misses (and [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION]'s 1950s example) is that we have been unable to control exactly how many we should take in, the consequence of which is that so such cheap labour pours in that it starts to undercut people in jobs that WOULD be done by people in the UK.

As an example, about 10 years ago I knew of a Polish handyman who came here and went all over Reigate doing all sorts of jobs. He slept in cheap digs and supported his family at home. Obviously middle-class Reigate was happy enough getting their jobs done for half the going rate, but I doubt it went down quite so well in neighbouring blue collar Redhill, and there are no shortage of people prepared to do that work for reasonable rates.

It's exactly this sort of example that alienated enough people to swing the Brexit vote in the disastrous direction we are now heading, and it could have been solved if the EU hadn't ignored the problem and Call Me Dave had done a better job of presenting his case.

The Home Office had all the tools it needed to control immigration but didn't use them. Take back control was one of the biggest lies.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

Why do you think the UK deserved "concessions" when we never bothered to use the significant powers to manage FoM that were there from day one?


https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-_b_13120104.html

Exactly.
When the government is making a mess of things, it's so easy to blame others and a lot of the public fell for it.

 

[Simster]

Simster, why do you feel the UK deserved "concessions" when we never bothered to use the significant powers to manage FoM that were there from day one?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-_b_13120104.html

Good grief, I didn't know they existed. In that case I agree with you entirely - this is almost entirely the fault of ignorant, incompetent UK governments although I'd say that 7 years is probably not long enough in any case.

 

[Stat Brother]

Oh I agree completely. But the nuance that this misses (and [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION]'s 1950s example) is that we have been unable to control exactly how many we should take in, the consequence of which is that so such cheap labour pours in that it starts to undercut people in jobs that WOULD be done by people in the UK.

As an example, about 10 years ago I knew of a Polish handyman who came here and went all over Reigate doing all sorts of jobs. He slept in cheap digs and supported his family at home. Obviously middle-class Reigate was happy enough getting their jobs done for half the going rate, but I doubt it went down quite so well in neighbouring blue collar Redhill, and there are no shortage of people prepared to do that work for reasonable rates.

It's exactly this sort of example that alienated enough people to swing the Brexit vote in the disastrous direction we are now heading, and it could have been solved if the EU hadn't ignored the problem and Call Me Dave had done a better job of presenting his case.

Has any former Prime Minister ever disappeared quite as successfully as Dave?
You know you've right royally screwed up if your conscience is more restless than Blair's.

Although I suppose his massive wages from faceless quango's help:-

As well as being on the board of several other organisations, the rest of his time is taken up predominantly with the UK-China Fund, which he has vice-chaired since December 2017.

The investment firm seeks to exploit opportunities for Chinese-British co-operation in technology, healthcare, energy and manufacturing but Cameron has been prohibited from lobbying ministers without the direct consent of the UK government by the parliamentary watchdog.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Good grief, I didn't know they existed. In that case I agree with you entirely - this is almost entirely the fault of ignorant, incompetent UK governments although I'd say that 7 years is probably not long enough in any case.

The 7 years transitional rule was applied to Romanians and Bulgarians in 2007, but not to The A8 in 2004. In the whole of The EU only The UK, The Republic or Ireland and Sweden did not apply it in 2004. The old '13,000 a year' line from that report on the A8 Accession is always twisted - it was 13,000 a year if we had the same transitional arrangements, or not, as France and Germany. We didn't and that comes back to administration and enforcement resources, or lack of them again.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Did you know that the first full working day after Brexit is April Fool's Day 2019