[Politics] Brexit

[Ernest]

I would think May is on VERY thin ice now. She's lucky they are on recess.

May have to be a recall at this rate

 

[WATFORD zero]

Maybe it was predictable. I took it that the vote was very close that there would need to be some sort of compromise. If Remain had won narrowly, then Cameron could have gone back to the EU and said "Look, it's close, if you don't go a bit further in meeting some of our concerns, I'll call another referendum and this time the government will be in favour of leaving."

If there was a narrow vote for Leave then my thought was that there would be a need for compromise. Leave, yes, but make sure it's not too disruptive. Instead May went for an option that's supported by very few people and could spell disaster for her. I really don't think anyone could have predicted such a self-destructive act.

I suspect I have a lot more in common with you than some of the remainers.

I've never been a big fan of the EU but see it as a necessary evil in a 21st century multi-national world with multi-national corporations. National governments just get out manouvered at every turn.

What we really should have done was take MEPs seriously and elected people who would fight for Britain rather than the amateurs and swivel-eyed loons that never turned up and wore a f***ing union flag!

I still can't believe so many people believed an amateur politician that couldn't even get himself elected as a Tory and then scared Cameron into this whole farce

 

[Gwylan]

I suspect I have a lot more in common with you than some of the remainers.

I've never been a big fan of the EU but see it as a necessary evil in a 21st century multi-national world with multi-national corporations. National governments just get out manouvered at every turn.

What we really should have done was take MEPs seriously and elected people who would fight for Britain rather than the amateurs and swivel-eyed loons that never turned up and wore a f***ing union flag!

I still can't believe so many people believed an amateur politician that couldn't even get himself elected as a Tory and then scared Cameron into this whole farce

I don't think I disagree with any of that, particularly the poor quality of our MEPs (although I don't think the UK is alone in that, just look at some of the chancers and swivel-eyed loonies who have been voted in for some of the east European countries).

But the EU is to blame for a lot of that: it's been reluctant to give the European Parliament more power. If it had, someone like Farage would never have got within spitting distance of the place.

 

[Sorrel]

Maybe it was predictable. I took it that the vote was very close that there would need to be some sort of compromise. If Remain had won narrowly, then Cameron could have gone back to the EU and said "Look, it's close, if you don't go a bit further in meeting some of our concerns, I'll call another referendum and this time the government will be in favour of leaving."

If there was a narrow vote for Leave then my thought was that there would be a need for compromise. Leave, yes, but make sure it's not too disruptive. Instead May went for an option that's supported by very few people and could spell disaster for her. I really don't think anyone could have predicted such a self-destructive act.

Yes, the closeness of the vote said to me - and continue to say to me - that EEA (without Custom Union) was probably the best option. I suspect there is enough leeway in the provisions of that to allow some kind of quasi-freedom of movement without jobs restrictions, which would cover the immigration issues. It just needed a bit of imagination (from the UK, the EU is not a system designed for imaginative use of rules).

I still think we might get there or somewhere similar. IMO a no-deal would be a disaster, as would remaining as things were before the vote: both would be a victory for one side over the other and if the country is split then the outcome should not be an absolute victory for one side over the other.

 

[Baldseagull]

Maybe it was predictable. I took it that the vote was very close that there would need to be some sort of compromise. If Remain had won narrowly, then Cameron could have gone back to the EU and said "Look, it's close, if you don't go a bit further in meeting some of our concerns, I'll call another referendum and this time the government will be in favour of leaving."

If there was a narrow vote for Leave then my thought was that there would be a need for compromise. Leave, yes, but make sure it's not too disruptive. Instead May went for an option that's supported by very few people and could spell disaster for her. I really don't think anyone could have predicted such a self-destructive act.

She has tried to keep both factions happy and has of course satisfied neither. This is a stalemate.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

She has tried to keep both factions happy and has of course satisfied neither. This is a stalemate.

She’s tried to keep the far-right headbanger Tories, the more sensible Tories, those lunatics in NI and the EU all happy. It was never goimg to work.

Game over May.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Maybe it was predictable. I took it that the vote was very close that there would need to be some sort of compromise. If Remain had won narrowly, then Cameron could have gone back to the EU and said "Look, it's close, if you don't go a bit further in meeting some of our concerns, I'll call another referendum and this time the government will be in favour of leaving."

If there was a narrow vote for Leave then my thought was that there would be a need for compromise. Leave, yes, but make sure it's not too disruptive. Instead May went for an option that's supported by very few people and could spell disaster for her. I really don't think anyone could have predicted such a self-destructive act.

Interesting. Cameron probably wouldn't have done that but the tide of history is certainly moving in the direction of EU reform. Many leavers like to claim that the Union is on a non-stop roll towards a superstate simply because that has been the direction of travel in the past. Certainly there are those in Europe who still want full-on federalism but the dial is starting to point in the opposite direction. From the Med to the Black Sea and the Baltic the number of countries who want a looser fit is growing. Britain could have been an influential leader in a changing continent. But instead...

 

[beorhthelm]

Interesting. Cameron probably wouldn't have done that but the tide of history is certainly moving in the direction of EU reform. Many leavers like to claim that the Union is on a non-stop roll towards a superstate simply because that has been the direction of travel in the past. Certainly there are those in Europe who still want full-on federalism but the dial is starting to point in the opposite direction. From the Med to the Black Sea and the Baltic the number of countries who want a looser fit is growing. Britain could have been an influential leader in a changing continent. But instead...

Britain had tried that tack for decades, promoting more countries to join to dilute the power of the Franco-German core. what happened? veto replaced by qmv (strengthing population over individual member states), the Euro (all to join bar UK and Denmark), plans for constitution (on hold), integrated police force, foreign policy, and EU army. those things are on the roadmap, and planned for introdcution in the next decade. dont deny it, embrace it as the future.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Bernier rejects the customs arrangements proposed in the White Paper. Is it dead in the water? Note the use of language rather cleverly mirroring our own Bexit-speak:


“Maintaining control of our money, law and borders also applies to the EU customs policy. The EU cannot and will not delegate the application of its customs policy and rules, VAT and duty collection to a non-member who would not be subject to the EU governance structures.
“Any customs arrangements or customs union – and I have always said that the EU is open to a customs union – must respect this principle.”

 

[WATFORD zero]

Britain had tried that tack for decades, promoting more countries to join to dilute the power of the Franco-German core. what happened? veto replaced by qmv (strengthing population over individual member states), the Euro (all to join bar UK and Denmark), plans for constitution (on hold), integrated police force, foreign policy, and EU army. those things are on the roadmap, and planned for introdcution in the next decade. dont deny it, embrace it as the future.

Why do you keep on repeating things you know not to be true. We have been here so many times before. I really can't be bothered this time of night.

But off the top of my head who out of Bulgaria, Croatia, Sweden, Poland, etc (I really can't be arsed to look up the rest) are being forced to adopt the Euro FFS?

 

[Ernest]

More dirty tricks coming out

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44966969

 

[Hampster Gull]

The Brexit negotiations have been handled so poorly. Triggering article 50 when the governing party had no joined up idea of what it wanted and the country split in two. Agreeing to the exit bill before agreeing the new relationship. More or less agreeing co-operation on security (one of our few remaining strong hands) before, um, agreeing the new relationship. And what from the EU on what we want. Um, nothing but the same lines they have said before.

 

[beorhthelm]

Why do you keep on repeating things you know not to be true. I really can't be bothered this time of night.

But off the top of my head who out of Bulgaria, Croatia, Sweden, Poland, etc (I really can't be arsed to look up the rest) are being forced to adopt the Euro FFS?

they are all expected to join once convergence criteria are met. its part of the Stability and Growth Pact and Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union to converge economic and monetary policy. the EU isnt currently forcing the matter because of a few problems with the existing monetry union, the roadmap is there for compliance eventually. why wouldnt they want to join the Euro? and presumably you accept the rest of the plans for further EU intragration?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The Thursday morning conversation between people with different opinions was going well, and then you turned up with this.

I suppose we should be grateful though - it illustrates the levels of logic, argument and detail among so many visceral leavers. I'm reminded of a journalist I worked with at the beginning of my working life. He was assigned to interview Tony Benn. He was thrilled. Benn was a hero of his. Off he went and later returned with copious notes and his little tape recorder, very happy. A few hours later, as I left for home, I found him at his desk surrounded by scraps of paper. I asked him how his piece was going. He looked at me morosely. "He didn't," he said sadly, "actually say anything."

*cough* he's on my list *cough*

I enjoyed the chat.

Here is the official literature I was sent just before the referendum:

 

[ManOfSussex]

they are all expected to join once convergence criteria are met. its part of the Stability and Growth Pact and Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union to converge economic and monetary policy. the EU isnt currently forcing the matter because of a few problems with the existing monetry union, the roadmap is there for compliance eventually. and why wouldnt they want to join the Euro?

Like when Sweden wanted to join when they had a referendum on it 15 years ago and rejected it? When are they actually joining, or is the Swedish economy not meeting the Euro convergence criteria?

(I'm sure Austria, Finland and The Republic of Ireland will be particularly really keen to end their neutrality and rush into The EU army you're going on about as well.)

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Britain had tried that tack for decades, promoting more countries to join to dilute the power of the Franco-German core. what happened? veto replaced by qmv (strengthing population over individual member states), the Euro (all to join bar UK and Denmark), plans for constitution (on hold), integrated police force, foreign policy, and EU army. those things are on the roadmap, and planned for introdcution in the next decade. dont deny it, embrace it as the future.

We need to understand what's gone before but you can't determine te future simply by extrapolating the past. If only it was that easy. Different pressures are building in Europe.

 

[Blue3]

*cough* he's on my list *cough*

I enjoyed the chat.

Here is the official literature I was sent just before the referendum:

View attachment 99190
View attachment 99191
View attachment 99192

What a load of total tosh why would anyone believe this crap

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I suspect I have a lot more in common with you than some of the remainers.

I've never been a big fan of the EU but see it as a necessary evil in a 21st century multi-national world with multi-national corporations. National governments just get out manouvered at every turn.

What we really should have done was take MEPs seriously and elected people who would fight for Britain rather than the amateurs and swivel-eyed loons that never turned up and wore a f***ing union flag!

I still can't believe so many people believed an amateur politician that couldn't even get himself elected as a Tory and then scared Cameron into this whole farce

Exactly. We spent 20 plus years not bothering getting our people on committees etc. We could have changed things. Instead we treated it like we treated the world cup in the 30s onward. First refusing to acknowledge it, then refusing to engage, then eventually signing up, getting one victory (the Thatcher rebate that was handed on a plate anyway) then thinking we own the bloody thing. Of course half the electorate think its all shit. Both our major parties have behaved and continue to behave like they think the wogs start at Calais. Those in the parties who embrace the EU project are treated like advocates of colonic irrigation and unnatural yoghurt. Naturists. What else would the average bloke think about the EU in the face of all that? Garlic munching hairy arm-pitted shit shower. Sad really.

 

[beorhthelm]

Like when Sweden wanted to join when they had a referendum on it 15 years ago and rejected it? When are they actually joining, or is the Swedish economy not meeting the Euro convergence criteria?

i dont know, theres alot of fudging in the EU. you accept the convergence criteria, the articles in the treaties exist and that it is the intent of EU for all members to join? the EU army is more aspirational at the moment and problematic for some nations, but again you wouldnt deny that Marcon and Merkle were speaking in favour of it only last year? why would remainers not accept and embrace all these integrations and a future federal state? i'm coming round to it, after all the arguments against leaving have been defeated, theres no real arguments against going the full monty. why vote to remain, only to oppose having more EU.

 

[ManOfSussex]

i dont know, theres alot of fudging in the EU. you accept the convergence criteria, the articles in the treaties exist and that it is the intent of EU for all members to join? the EU army is more aspirational at the moment and problematic for some nations, but again you wouldnt deny that Marcon and Merkle were speaking in favour of it only last year? why would remainers not accept and embrace all these integrations and a future federal state? i'm coming round to it, after all the arguments against leaving have been defeated, theres no real arguments against going the full monty. why vote to remain, only to oppose having more EU.

So there's fudging in The EU, not including The UK & Denmark, 7 members states have yet to join the Euro, including one that's been a member for 23 years, there'll be full integration and a future federal state but as you state in your opening line, you don't really know. Okay.