[Politics] Brexit

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What a load of total tosh why would anyone believe this crap

Well, I was outraged, but lots did believe it. Boris repeated the 350 million lie. And all the racists still think the Turks (and Syrians - see the map) are a'coming.

Those leaflets arrived as official 'vote leave' literature. There is no BNP etc branding on it. Most punters imagined there were two campaign - official leave and official remain. That was 'official leave literature' surely? Nice, isn't it?

I was not sent any measured 'bit of a risk but we think it will work out in the end' literature. The remain iterature was measured and dull, and basically said 'why chuck away what we have for the unknown?'.

Christ on a rusty bike with no saddle and flat tyres. This is a shit show beyond imagining. The liars won, and now they are failing to deliver. Why the actual fck have Davies and the blond buffoon resigned? To save their face? Utter utter disgrace. I would actually say traitors.

I understand why the eyes wide open leavers voted leave, but boy have we been lied to, and boy did Cameron sell the country for a ha'p'orth of votes. Irresponsible little shit.

I have had a lovely day today with my family, on the beach. Life for me, my struggles overcome, and my career near its end, is a treat. For those still trying to make a life for themselves, best of luck. I'm truly sorry for you.

 

[Berty23]

This thread shows how dodgy the campaigning was https://twitter.com/veritasta/status/1022456169082830849?s=21

 

[Lincoln Imp]

i dont know, theres alot of fudging in the EU. you accept the convergence criteria, the articles in the treaties exist and that it is the intent of EU for all members to join? the EU army is more aspirational at the moment and problematic for some nations, but again you wouldnt deny that Marcon and Merkle were speaking in favour of it only last year? why would remainers not accept and embrace all these integrations and a future federal state? i'm coming round to it, after all the arguments against leaving have been defeated, theres no real arguments against going the full monty. why vote to remain, only to oppose having more EU.

I don't like to be picky but your post says you don't know about how the Euro convergence criteria might be applied and that two politicians have aspirations about an EU defence alliance - and conflates this into a reference to a future federal state. It all looks a bit Turkey-is-set-to-join to me. And your reference to 'all the arguments against leaving have been defeated' threw me rather. I can't see that one of them has been proven so far.

 

[beorhthelm]

I don't like to be picky but your post says you don't know about how the Euro convergence criteria might be applied and that two politicians have aspirations about an EU defence alliance - and conflates this into a reference to a future federal state. It all looks a bit Turkey-is-set-to-join to me. And your reference to 'all the arguments against leaving have been defeated' threw me rather. I can't see that one of them has been proven so far.

i meant for leaving, or against remaining. force of habit i suppose, like those that cant accept the future plans for EU in existing treaties and promoted by EU leaders. i dont know when Sweden is joining the Euro. i do know those criteria and agreements to converge exist. its pointed out that some members would have a problem with EU Military, i simply note this a policy of core members. why isnt this acknowledged and accepted?

 

[GT49er]

Well, I was outraged.

Most remoaners are. It's a vocation.

Those leaflets arrived as official 'vote leave' literature. There is no BNP etc branding on it.

Possibly because it wasn't BNP literature? I know, an impossible concept for remainers to grasp...............

I was not sent any measured 'bit of a risk but we think it will work out in the end' literature.

Have you ever been sent any election literature stating something along those lines? Ever? No, thought not.

I understand why the eyes wide open leavers voted leave.

Sorry, but every statement you've made suggests that that's the last thing you're anywhere close to understanding.

I have had a lovely day today with my family, on the beach. Life for me, my struggles overcome, and my career near its end, is a treat. For those still trying to make a life for themselves, best of luck. I'm truly sorry for you.

Almost right, except for the last bit. Try: "I have had a lovely day today with my family, on the beach. Life for me, my struggles overcome, and my career near its end, is a treat. For those still trying to make a life for themselves, best of luck. But at least you'll be out of the EU".

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

More dirty tricks coming out

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44966969

Makes a mockery of the mealy-mouthed replies of those earlier saying that you can’t possibly blame the leave voters.

This is the poison they voted for.

 

[Baldseagull]

Most remoaners are. It's a vocation.


Possibly because it wasn't BNP literature? I know, an impossible concept for remainers to grasp...............


Have you ever been sent any election literature stating something along those lines? Ever? No, thought not.


Sorry, but every statement you've made suggests that that's the last thing you're anywhere close to understanding.


Almost right, except for the last bit. Try: "I have had a lovely day today with my family, on the beach. Life for me, my struggles overcome, and my career near its end, is a treat. For those still trying to make a life for themselves, best of luck. But at least you'll be out of the EU".

You would not know, you are not an eyes wide open leaver.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

The Brexit negotiations have been handled so poorly. Triggering article 50 when the governing party had no joined up idea of what it wanted and the country split in two. Agreeing to the exit bill before agreeing the new relationship. More or less agreeing co-operation on security (one of our few remaining strong hands) before, um, agreeing the new relationship. And what from the EU on what we want. Um, nothing but the same lines they have said before.

One of the shortcomings of the process has been the early 'red lines' (painted ourselves into a corner) followed by drift and dithering. So we've ended up pulling the White Paper rabbit out of the hat at virtually the last minute. Not only does this include some really very vague things (eg Northern Ireland) but on the hoped for miracle of the customs arrangements one would have thought that some tentative prior exploration might have revealed that this would be a no-go for the EU? So we keep stumbling into these big set-piece negotiations (which are few and far between) with undeliverable surprise packages. And then we're surprised when they are kicked out and it's back to the drawing board for the next lot of tosh.

Isn't negotiation a bit more subtle and nuanced? Really beginning to look like a case study on how not to do it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Most remoaners are. It's a vocation.


Possibly because it wasn't BNP literature? I know, an impossible concept for remainers to grasp...............


Have you ever been sent any election literature stating something along those lines? Ever? No, thought not.


Sorry, but every statement you've made suggests that that's the last thing you're anywhere close to understanding.


Almost right, except for the last bit. Try: "I have had a lovely day today with my family, on the beach. Life for me, my struggles overcome, and my career near its end, is a treat. For those still trying to make a life for themselves, best of luck. But at least you'll be out of the EU".

Nope. None of that.

 

[Blue3]

Well, I was outraged, but lots did believe it. Boris repeated the 350 million lie. And all the racists still think the Turks (and Syrians - see the map) are a'coming.

Those leaflets arrived as official 'vote leave' literature. There is no BNP etc branding on it. Most punters imagined there were two campaign - official leave and official remain. That was 'official leave literature' surely? Nice, isn't it?

I was not sent any measured 'bit of a risk but we think it will work out in the end' literature. The remain iterature was measured and dull, and basically said 'why chuck away what we have for the unknown?'.

Christ on a rusty bike with no saddle and flat tyres. This is a shit show beyond imagining. The liars won, and now they are failing to deliver. Why the actual fck have Davies and the blond buffoon resigned? To save their face? Utter utter disgrace. I would actually say traitors.

I understand why the eyes wide open leavers voted leave, but boy have we been lied to, and boy did Cameron sell the country for a ha'p'orth of votes. Irresponsible little shit.

I have had a lovely day today with my family, on the beach. Life for me, my struggles overcome, and my career near its end, is a treat. For those still trying to make a life for themselves, best of luck. I'm truly sorry for you.[/QUOTE)

I have just read it out to my wife having recently taken early retirement at 58 I am in the comfortable position knowing we are going to be ok with a nice final salary pension plus fully paid up state pension to look forward but I totally agree with you we are also truly sorry for the mess my generation has left for all those trying to make a life for themselves and the architects of this where are they every one of them has failed to deliver scurrying off into oblivion shame on them on all those who of my generation who have let future generations down so very badly the only way out that I can see if for a people's vote on the final deal with the option of remain if the deal is so bad, of course this could not be an option at this stage as it would severely weaken Mrs Mays hand but once negotiations have been completed I hope it then becomes an option as without it this country will be the poorer for the next 50 years

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

i meant for leaving, or against remaining. force of habit i suppose, like those that cant accept the future plans for EU in existing treaties and promoted by EU leaders. i dont know when Sweden is joining the Euro. i do know those criteria and agreements to converge exist. its pointed out that some members would have a problem with EU Military, i simply note this a policy of core members. why isnt this acknowledged and accepted?

Because it isn't what you imagine it is. You speak of 'core members' and 'policy'. Who are these people and what is this policy? My understanding of politics is there are always numerous factions even in a single party, and the outcome is whatever concensus the party considers electorally palatable. When parties disregard this (like the 'no compromise with the electorate' labour of the early 80s, and Corbyn's 'nationalise everthing' labour now), they suffer at election time.

But you are alluding to what would have to be not only a party-wide 'core' conspiracy, but a pan-national Illuminati-style conspiracy of 'core members'. I think you may have been reading too much Dan Brown. The EU is not run by a secret elite with a 'policy' that they force on everyone else, 1984-style. Your perspective reminds me of the perspective of the 'policy' in the vote leave literature I posted above, that the EU planned to let Turkey join and there was nothing we in the UK could do to stop hoards of Turks pitching their tents in the Level.

Can you show me this policy, and also show me a written explanation of how such policies are converted into laws (without the approval of the European parliament) that must be obeyed by member nations?

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Well, I was outraged, but lots did believe it. Boris repeated the 350 million lie. And all the racists still think the Turks (and Syrians - see the map) are a'coming.

Those leaflets arrived as official 'vote leave' literature. There is no BNP etc branding on it. Most punters imagined there were two campaign - official leave and official remain. That was 'official leave literature' surely? Nice, isn't it?

I was not sent any measured 'bit of a risk but we think it will work out in the end' literature. The remain iterature was measured and dull, and basically said 'why chuck away what we have for the unknown?'.

Christ on a rusty bike with no saddle and flat tyres. This is a shit show beyond imagining. The liars won, and now they are failing to deliver. Why the actual fck have Davies and the blond buffoon resigned? To save their face? Utter utter disgrace. I would actually say traitors.

I understand why the eyes wide open leavers voted leave, but boy have we been lied to, and boy did Cameron sell the country for a ha'p'orth of votes. Irresponsible little shit.

I have had a lovely day today with my family, on the beach. Life for me, my struggles overcome, and my career near its end, is a treat. For those still trying to make a life for themselves, best of luck. I'm truly sorry for you.[/QUOTE)

I have just read it out to my wife having recently taken early retirement at 58 I am in the comfortable position knowing we are going to be ok with a nice final salary pension plus fully paid up state pension to look forward but I totally agree with you we are also truly sorry for the mess my generation has left for all those trying to make a life for themselves and the architects of this where are they every one of them has failed to deliver scurrying off into oblivion shame on them on all those who of my generation who have let future generations down so very badly the only way out that I can see if for a people's vote on the final deal with the option of remain if the deal is so bad, of course this could not be an option at this stage as it would severely weaken Mrs Mays hand but once negotiations have been completed I hope it then becomes an option as without it this country will be the poorer for the next 50 years

As a Remainer who also as of yesterday handed in his notice and is about to go into retirement mode, I share your sentiments especially with respect to our generation's legacy to the next.

 

[beorhthelm]

Can you show me this policy, and also show me a written explanation of how such policies are converted into laws (without the approval of the European parliament) that must be obeyed by member nations?

recent PESCO agreement
estblishment of European Defense Agency
original treaty obligation in Maastrict

im sure there's plenty of hair to be split, my only assertion was that policy exists.

and i am not alluding to any conspiracies, the EU are completely open about the intents and objectives. i think you're reading a lot into what i said that isnt there.

 

[Two Professors]

As a Remainer who also as of yesterday handed in his notice and is about to go into retirement mode, I share your sentiments especially with respect to our generation's legacy to the next.

Congratulations.Wishing you a happy retirement,I'm sure you will love it as much as I do.Still think you're wrong on the legacy thing,don't forget Leavers love our families and want the best for them too.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Congratulations.Wishing you a happy retirement,I'm sure you will love it as much as I do.Still think you're wrong on the legacy thing,don't forget Leavers love our families and want the best for them too.

Thanks very much.

 

[Blue3]

Congratulations.Wishing you a happy retirement,I'm sure you will love it as much as I do.Still think you're wrong on the legacy thing,don't forget Leavers love our families and want the best for them too.

Thank you having a great retirement but as a Remainer not only my family but I want to share for everyone in the hope that after I have gone we leave the world better and everyone living in a fairer society

 

[ManOfSussex]

recent PESCO agreement
estblishment of European Defense Agency
original treaty obligation in Maastrict

im sure there's plenty of hair to be split, my only assertion was that policy exists.

and i am not alluding to any conspiracies, the EU are completely open about the intents and objectives. i think you're reading a lot into what i said that isnt there.

On PESCO - Ireland, Sweden, Finland and Austria, who are all neutral, willingly signed up to it. Denmark, that has an opt out didn't and Malta chose not to - Again, nobody is being forced into these policies.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

recent PESCO agreement
estblishment of European Defense Agency
original treaty obligation in Maastrict

im sure there's plenty of hair to be split, my only assertion was that policy exists.

Well I will split hairs. You said it is policy of core members to create an EU military. A cursory look at the first document you provided (from 2003) shows this is nonsense:

"Mission

1. The mission of the Agency is to support the Council and the Member States in their effort to improve the EU’s defence capabilities in the field of crisis management and to sustain the ESDP as it stands now and develops in the future.

2. The Agency’s mission shall be without prejudice to the competences of Member States in defence matters."

I'm not a big fan of the EU, but blimey, there is not being a big fan and having a pathological and ludicrous prejudice agin. It is the nature of all organisations to offer a view on issues. It means absoluely nothing. My own scientific society published its view on Brexit (before the vote). It felt it owed it to its members to do so. The document was long winded and pointless. And in no way does it constitue a 'policy' on Brexit.

If only Brits had engaged properly with the EU, as I noted a few days ago and as others have noted time and time again, instead of standing on the sidelines throwing bricks at staw men (like the straight bananas, forcible experanto, all medicines as suppositories, and the compulsory eating of horse flesh) we might have managed to influence the process (using our famous know-how). Sad.

And so, you may rejoice in the 'fact' will will no longer be 'forced' to make all our troops wear black berets in place of helmets and strings of onions in place of grenades, but I shake my head sadly at the spectacle of someone evidently straw-clutching - and not only that you still seem quite miserable and angry (which I find baffling). Cheer up FFS! You have 'won', we are out, possibly with an 'easy' hard Brexit, and all will be clover. It is the poor brain dead mugs like me that will have to dry their eyes, surely? If I were you I'd have my feet up and a fat cigar on the go - I wouldn't be arguing the toss with a nob-head remainer on NSC....

 

[beorhthelm]

On PESCO - Ireland, Sweden, Finland and Austria, who are all neutral, willingly signed up to it. Denmark, that has an opt out didn't and Malta chose not to - Again, nobody is being forced into these policies.

where did i say it was being forced? it remains to seen how EU implements the policies, the only point i was making that the policies do exist. im not sure if you are denying them, or arguing against me because you think im making some argument against the EU - i am not.

Well I will split hairs. You said it is policy of core members to create an EU military. A cursory look at the first document you provided (from 2003) shows this is nonsense:

three pieces of evidence showing the steps towards an objective and you say that isnt a policy?

 

[ManOfSussex]

where did i say it was being forced? it remains to seen how EU implements the policies, the only point i was making that the policies do exist. im not sure if you are denying them, or arguing against me because you think im making some argument against the EU - i am not.

As PESCO falls under 'enhanced cooperation', it's implementation will be down to those who've signed up to it and wish to participate within it, not those that haven't.