[Politics] Brexit

[Lincoln Imp]

The vast majority of leave voters were motivated mainly by Brexit specific issues (taking back control/immigration), see numerous polls. No one, as far as I am aware has ever said giving the powers that be a kicking wasn't a factor for some. Issues are overlapping. Giving the elites a whack about continually ignoring concerns on immigration was also a Brexit issue. It's ok for you and others remainers to claim lofty considerations but not for Leave voters?

Exaggerating a point to misrepresent an argument is tiresome and disingenuous. Yes you claimed some bloke you met in Barnsley had one reason for voting and was therefore representative of an entire town because he told you so. Compelling evidence. Numerous polls and surveys asking thousands of leave voters for their reasons possibly more representative and convincing in my view.

I doubt leave voters who were partially or mainly motivated by giving the Remain establishment a kick, would welcome remainers telling them what sort of Brexit would be best for them. In case you missed it Parliament has already voted down the EEA/Norway type option .. by a huge majority.

I am sorry you found me tiresome and disingenuous. This 'bloke I claimed to meet in Barnsley' was actually someone I have known quite well for a long time. He's interesting. He chose a particular career and became one of the top ten or so practitioners in the country. He was rather famous in a way. He could have moved away from his hard-pressed home town but he lives plainly and never wanted to come home to anywhere else. He has a deep civic sense and is involved with hundreds of people - maybe thousands - in the town. I am astonished by the number of people who speak or smile when he passes them. I don't know his politics, or how he voted in the referendum. He doesn't promote these things. He is about as far from being in internet shouter as you could imagine. His suggestion that the people of his town voted heavily to give the government a well-deserved whack was made quietly and in private. I know this doesn't fit the Leave view that the vast majority of leave voters turned out for matters involving freedom of movement, judicial powers and all the rest but his seems a legitimate notion to me, repeated in many places across the country, including one or two that I know well. Try not to demean, or to suggest that I am making things up. Or being a liar, as your friend on here likes to suggest.

As far as your polls are concerned, I am sure they reflect the national view to a degree but I wouldn't put too much stock on people's reactions when someone puts a list of reasons for leaving the EU in front of them. People - remainers and leavers alike - naturally put a good gloss on their tastes and opinions. I know I do. I'm reminded of a wonderful post on here a year or more ago which said that racism wasn't an issue in the referendum because it simply didn't feature in Leave voters' responses to being asked why they voted as they did.

And nowhere have I said that Leave voters should not have 'lofty considerations'. Many have.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Bit of a Fantasist moron aren't you.Where have I said fall into it?take a holiday,sounds like you need one!
Ppf is just too intelligent for someone with your lack of intellect to understand.

It's only just occurred to me that you really genuinely thought that if TM failed to get a deal that would be a 'no deal' Brexit. Best post of the whole thread

 

[Pretty Plnk Fairy]

Bit of a Fantasist moron aren't you.Where have I said fall into it?take a holiday,sounds like you need one!
Ppf is just too intelligent for someone with your lack of intellect to understand.

1st class honors from univercity of life thats why

regards
DR

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You feel you can get away with calling me a liar because you don't think I can be fagged to scroll back though 18 months of posts to prove I'm not. In that respect you are correct.

Perhaps you were advised by your 50-odd pro-Brexit American acquaintances.

Modus Operandi.

 

[Two Professors]

It's only just occurred to me that you really genuinely thought that if TM failed to get a deal that would be a 'no deal' Brexit. Best post of the whole thread

I'm not being sexist in any way,but are you female?Your massively wrong leaps of intuition have only ever been matched by a former girlfriend in my experience.

 

[Two Professors]

Modus Operandi.

I will see your Modus Operandi and raise you a Carpe Diem and Nil Desperandum.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

I will see your Modus Operandi and raise you a Carpe Diem and Nil Desperandum.

Suitably learned response prompting the question - what are you Two Professors of i.e. what academic disciplines (the plural as you are a plural). Can I start by eliminating Economics and European Studies?

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's only just occurred to me that you really genuinely thought that if TM failed to get a deal that would be a 'no deal' Brexit. Best post of the whole thread

I'm not being sexist in any way,but are you female?Your massively wrong leaps of intuition have only ever been matched by a former girlfriend in my experience.

No intuition required, simply quoting what you said

It's getting closer to 'no deal' time,So we 'should get behind them' and 'get on with it',even the deep-breathing morons!
Here's the latest timetable,not long now,tick-tock!

Haven't laughed so much since pastafarian posted his screen capture

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I am sorry you found me tiresome and disingenuous. This 'bloke I claimed to meet in Barnsley' was actually someone I have known quite well for a long time. He's interesting. He chose a particular career and became one of the top ten or so practitioners in the country. He was rather famous in a way. He could have moved away from his hard-pressed home town but he lives plainly and never wanted to come home to anywhere else. He has a deep civic sense and is involved with hundreds of people - maybe thousands - in the town. I am astonished by the number of people who speak or smile when he passes them. I don't know his politics, or how he voted in the referendum. He doesn't promote these things. He is about as far from being in internet shouter as you could imagine. His suggestion that the people of his town voted heavily to give the government a well-deserved whack was made quietly and in private. I know this doesn't fit the Leave view that the vast majority of leave voters turned out for matters involving freedom of movement, judicial powers and all the rest but his seems a legitimate notion to me, repeated in many places across the country, including one or two that I know well. Try not to demean, or to suggest that I am making things up. Or being a liar, as your friend on here likes to suggest.

As far as your polls are concerned, I am sure they reflect the national view to a degree but I wouldn't put too much stock on people's reactions when someone puts a list of reasons for leaving the EU in front of them. People - remainers and leavers alike - naturally put a good gloss on their tastes and opinions. I know I do. I'm reminded of a wonderful post on here a year or more ago which said that racism wasn't an issue in the referendum because it simply didn't feature in Leave voters' responses to being asked why they voted as they did.

And nowhere have I said that Leave voters should not have 'lofty considerations'. Many have.

Normally you are an absolute delight obviously [if a little sensitive] but I appreciate your apology. Perhaps a first step in acknowledging your tendency to exaggerate and misrepresent arguments is detrimental to reasoned debate.

As with every remainer in this thread who has referenced family or friends it comes as no surprise that the representation of their friends/family opinions is hugely significant. Considering this is a person you know quite well and for a long time .. who was offering his opinions on Brexit I am a little surprised you didn't know his general politics or his personal stance on Brexit. Saying that the picture you creatively paint conjures up images of the Dalai Lama of Barnsley.

I would put more stock in opinion polls and surveys (that don't always give people straightforward options) than personal anecdotes from clearly partisan individuals about people they know while trying to push a particular agenda . Anyone with a basic understanding of critical thinking would do the same. If individual opinions continue to float your boat there are plenty of links/sources from individual residents of Barnsley clearly stating why the voted leave for both good and bad reasons The 'giving the government a whack' reason doesn't figure heavily if at all.

I can't remember anyone saying that racism definitely wasn't an issue for some but look forward to you linking to that wonderful post. God forbid we have another example of you exaggerating and misrepresenting an argument.

You have doubted Leavers' lofty considerations' on numerous occasion including in your latest post. Acknowledging both sides can put a gloss on their motive is progress though.

Finally It's always more interesting what you don't eventually respond to. As parliament has voted against an EEA/Norway option by a huge majority I assume you acknowledge this is now off the table?

 

[Two Professors]

No intuition required, simply quoting what you said



Haven't laughed so much since pastafarian posted his screen capture

Don't understand irony and a bit thick,hi Joanna,didn't know you supported Albion.As you like screen capture so much,here is one of your post 50713 that I was taking the mickey out of:

 

[Two Professors]

Suitably learned response prompting the question - what are you Two Professors of i.e. what academic disciplines (the plural as you are a plural). Can I start by eliminating Economics and European Studies?

History Today,courtesy of Newman and Baddiel,is where the Two Professors originated.I was a lurker on the site for a couple of years and some of the pompous posters reminded me of them,starting out as smug know-alls and rapidly descending into massive abuse.If you haven't seen it,a quick look would identify several posters on the Brexit thread.The show was called the Mary Whitehouse Experience from the early 90's-good fun.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Don't understand irony and a bit thick,hi Joanna,didn't know you supported Albion.As you like screen capture so much,here is one of your post 50713 that I was taking the mickey out of:

View attachment 97847

If you are reversing that quickly, make sure you check your mirrors.

All your enjoyment and tick-tock at every opportunity was simply because you thought that TM not progressing a deal really meant we were getting closer to a 'no deal' Brexit. I had been wondering for a while why you were taking such enjoyment over the complete lack of progress. Obviously I knew that Ppf with his tick-tock didn't understand, but I had seriously underestimated your stupidity. I blame myself as you had given plenty of clues

 

[Two Professors]

If you are reversing that quickly, make sure you check your mirrors.

All your enjoyment and tick-tock at every opportunity was simply because you thought that TM not progressing a deal really meant we were getting closer to a 'no deal' Brexit. I had been wondering for a while why you were taking such enjoyment over the complete lack of progress. Obviously I knew that Ppf with his tick-tock didn't understand, but I had seriously underestimated your stupidity. I blame myself as you had given plenty of clues

Did Floella tell you that?You sound just like another poster on here.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

History Today,courtesy of Newman and Baddiel,is where the Two Professors originated.I was a lurker on the site for a couple of years and some of the pompous posters reminded me of them,starting out as smug know-alls and rapidly descending into massive abuse.If you haven't seen it,a quick look would identify several posters on the Brexit thread.The show was called the Mary Whitehouse Experience from the early 90's-good fun.

Ah - yes I checked it out. I was more of the Monty Python generation so the 90s stuff was a bit lost of me. In fact in 1985 I was the subject of the first ever Sense of Humour Transplant operation after my own sense had terminally failed and I was implanted with the sense of humour of a horse. The trouble was that the horse was legendary in the horse community for his total lack of a sense of humour (which is why he didn't mind donating it) and I've never laughed since.

 

[nicko31]

The facts just hurt when it comes to the Brexit dividend that doesn't exist

https://news.sky.com/video/do-brexit-dividend-numbers-add-up-11408511

Wonder which group of people the Tories will hit to pay for it?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Normally you are an absolute delight obviously [if a little sensitive] but I appreciate your apology. Perhaps a first step in acknowledging your tendency to exaggerate and misrepresent arguments is detrimental to reasoned debate.

As with every remainer in this thread who has referenced family or friends it comes as no surprise that the representation of their friends/family opinions is hugely significant. Considering this is a person you know quite well and for a long time .. who was offering his opinions on Brexit I am a little surprised you didn't know his general politics or his personal stance on Brexit. Saying that the picture you creatively paint conjures up images of the Dalai Lama of Barnsley.

I would put more stock in opinion polls and surveys (that don't always give people straightforward options) than personal anecdotes from clearly partisan individuals about people they know while trying to push a particular agenda . Anyone with a basic understanding of critical thinking would do the same. If individual opinions continue to float your boat there are plenty of links/sources from individual residents of Barnsley clearly stating why the voted leave for both good and bad reasons The 'giving the government a whack' reason doesn't figure heavily if at all.

I can't remember anyone saying that racism definitely wasn't an issue for some but look forward to you linking to that wonderful post. God forbid we have another example of you exaggerating and misrepresenting an argument.

You have doubted Leavers' lofty considerations' on numerous occasion including in your latest post. Acknowledging both sides can put a gloss on their motive is progress though.

Finally It's always more interesting what you don't eventually respond to. As parliament has voted against an EEA/Norway option by a huge majority I assume you acknowledge this is now off the table?

Great stuff.

I'm also sorry that I occasionally have to ask PPF a question, but that doesn't mean I am apologising to him!

But to turn to your reply. I really don't think I exaggerate, even when I am addressing your tendency toward absolutism and patronising tones.

And while I don't want to come over all forensic about a chat between two unimportant people in South Yorkshire you raise the subject so I'll stress that my friend wasn't 'pushing an agenda'. (Perhaps you and me are, but he wasn't.) We were talking over a meal about his town's travails and I asked what had replaced the pits and the glassworks as places around which people work. He said that nothing had and that the town and its people often feel abandoned by those who run the country. And that led naturally to his comments about the thinking that drove the local referendum result.

We must disagree about the spirit in which many people approached the polling booths on referendum day in Barnsley and Boston and many places in between. We also disagree on the way the human condition naturally makes people want to legitimise their actions (I don't think they need to in this case, by the way - wanting to give the government a whack is a perfectly OK philosophy in my book.).

And finally, the parliamentary arithmetic. I didn't mention it because that wasn't what we were talking about. I gave a thought on what sort of Brexit "the people" had signalled what they would be most happy with (bearing in mind virtually half said they didn't want a Brexit at all) and your response included the non-sequitur of a Westminster vote. I know what the Westminster vote was, and all the various pressures that drove it.

 

[Two Professors]

Ah - yes I checked it out. I was more of the Monty Python generation so the 90s stuff was a bit lost of me. In fact in 1985 I was the subject of the first ever Sense of Humour Transplant operation after my own sense had terminally failed and I was implanted with the sense of humour of a horse. The trouble was that the horse was legendary in the horse community for his total lack of a sense of humour (which is why he didn't mind donating it) and I've never laughed since.

Monty Python for me too,and Spike Milligan's totally un- PC 'Q' series.Don't think anybody would show sketches about a Pakistani Dalek living in the Black Country nowadays!"Exterminates pet cat.PUT IT IN THE CURRY"

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Monty Python for me too,and Spike Milligan's totally un- PC 'Q' series.Don't think anybody would show sketches about a Pakistani Dalek living in the Black Country nowadays!"Exterminates pet cat.PUT IT IN THE CURRY"

We finally agree on something! Spike was a real-deal comedic genius - and one with Sussex connections. But we mustn't digress from the main business of the thread which is to lob bricks at each other...……………...

 

[Two Professors]

We finally agree on something! Spike was a real-deal comedic genius - and one with Sussex connections. But we mustn't digress from the main business of the thread which is to lob bricks at each other...……………...

I have no doubt we could also reach agreement on the standard of the officials at the World Cup so far,but back to the trenches

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

I have no doubt we could also reach agreement on the standard of the officials at the World Cup so far,but back to the trenches

Yes agreed. But I blame Brexit for this.