[Politics] Brexit

[GT49er]

I have come to the conclusion that neither side know anything about what is going to happen if we vote leave. The whole thing is getting completely out of hand and campaigners are now trying to save their own sorry political skins.

However, it is the leave campaign, and Boris, Farage and Gove that are really getting on my nerves.

The Boris bus has "we send the EU £350M a week" plastered along the side of it - conveniently omitting how much we get back from the EU
The leave campaign go on about immigration. The 2015 net immigration figure was 333,000 - less than half of which were from the EU
I've heard a lot from the leave campaign about the Lisbon Treaty stating a European Army is to be formed in 2017 with conscription from all countries. Read up on it, that's bollocks
And we get ridiculous soundbites from Boris stating things like the EU prevent us buying bunches of bananas with more than 3 fruit on them. Again, bollocks.

On top of all the lies, the leave campaign are now starting to make statements that sound more like Governmental policy making, "We can take VAT off fuel bills" "We will introduce a points system for immigration" etc Really? So how are you going to do that? You are running a campaign to leave the EU, not to become the Government.

The cynic in me firmly believes that Boris is simply using this referendum as what he perceives to be the quickest route to Number 10. If the result is leave, I fully expect Boris to instigate a vote of no confidence in Cameron with a view to becoming PM himself.

I am sure the remain campaign are probably just as bad, but Boris and his cronies have at least managed to convince this voter how to vote. I'm Remain.

Finding one side's lies and deceptions slightly less offensive than the other side's lies and deceptions is hardly a good reason for voting for them!

 

[Bakero]

Finding one side's lies and deceptions slightly less offensive than the other side's lies and deceptions is hardly a good reason for voting for them!

The other option is voting for the more offensive side.

 

[pasty]

Finding one side's lies and deceptions slightly less offensive than the other side's lies and deceptions is hardly a good reason for voting for them!

It's not so much the lies that are making me vote remain per-se, but more the fact that the leave campaign cannot, or simply refuse, to TRUTHFULLY tell me what life will be like if we vote leave. If I don't know that, I ain't gonna vote for it. I know what life is like remaining in the EU, and better that than something I don't know.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I have come to the conclusion that neither side know anything about what is going to happen if we vote leave. The whole thing is getting completely out of hand and campaigners are now trying to save their own sorry political skins.

However, it is the leave campaign, and Boris, Farage and Gove that are really getting on my nerves.

The Boris bus has "we send the EU £350M a week" plastered along the side of it - conveniently omitting how much we get back from the EU
The leave campaign go on about immigration. The 2015 net immigration figure was 333,000 - less than half of which were from the EU
I've heard a lot from the leave campaign about the Lisbon Treaty stating a European Army is to be formed in 2017 with conscription from all countries. Read up on it, that's bollocks
And we get ridiculous soundbites from Boris stating things like the EU prevent us buying bunches of bananas with more than 3 fruit on them. Again, bollocks.

On top of all the lies, the leave campaign are now starting to make statements that sound more like Governmental policy making, "We can take VAT off fuel bills" "We will introduce a points system for immigration" etc Really? So how are you going to do that? You are running a campaign to leave the EU, not to become the Government.

The cynic in me firmly believes that Boris is simply using this referendum as what he perceives to be the quickest route to Number 10. If the result is leave, I fully expect Boris to instigate a vote of no confidence in Cameron with a view to becoming PM himself.

I am sure the remain campaign are probably just as bad, but Boris and his cronies have at least managed to convince this voter how to vote. I'm Remain.

Do your research online, plenty of information, news about how appalling the EU is. Up to you, but I wouldn't base my vote by listening to any of them in leave or remain. Once in a lifetime opportunity to make a change for the better. Get researching.

 

[Spiros]

Do your research online, plenty of information, news about how appalling the EU is. Up to you, but I wouldn't base my vote by listening to any of them in leave or remain. Once in a lifetime opportunity to make a change for the better. Get researching.

Each time I see an outrageous quote from one side or the other I try and research it and it seems that both sides are prone to - at best - exaggeration and at worst some downright lies. However the Remain side seem to be less extreme in this. It may also be easier for Remain to 'paint a picture' because it's probably not a million miles from what we've seen over the last few years whereas Leave need to make us believe that it's all change. My biggest problem is not so much which the changes that a Leave vote might bring, but the chaos that many years of uncertainty and negotiation will cause. The Germans may be pretty OK towards us but the French will use it as an excuse to stick one up us at every opportunity, you just know it

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Each time I see an outrageous quote from one side or the other I try and research it and it seems that both sides are prone to - at best - exaggeration and at worst some downright lies. However the Remain side seem to be less extreme in this. It may also be easier for Remain to 'paint a picture' because it's probably not a million miles from what we've seen over the last few years whereas Leave need to make us believe that it's all change. My biggest problem is not so much which the changes that a Leave vote might bring, but the chaos that many years of uncertainty and negotiation will cause. The Germans may be pretty OK towards us but the French will use it as an excuse to stick one up us at every opportunity, you just know it

The French are talking about referendum. In the way of sticking one on us, they would probably vote leave and it would be OK. Once in a lifetime vote.

 

[pasty]

Once in a lifetime vote.

Not if you're over 61 it isn't

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Not if you're over 61 it isn't

I'm 41 years old, and I certainly know a time when things where a million times better than this. Thing is even when things went bad you knew it would only get better, now we don't even have that. Feels like we are being sold down the river.

 

[GT49er]

It's not so much the lies that are making me vote remain per-se, but more the fact that the leave campaign cannot, or simply refuse, to TRUTHFULLY tell me what life will be like if we vote leave. If I don't know that, I ain't gonna vote for it. I know what life is like remaining in the EU, and better that than something I don't know.

So you know what the EU will do once we've given them the OK by voting to remain?

You could just as easily say, "The remain campaign cannot, or simply refuse, to TRUTHFULLY tell me what life will be like if we vote remain. If I don't know that, I ain't gonna vote for it." Would make just as much sense.

 

[5ways]

So you know what the EU will do once we've given them the OK by voting to remain?

You could just as easily say, "The remain campaign cannot, or simply refuse, to TRUTHFULLY tell me what life will be like if we vote remain. If I don't know that, I ain't gonna vote for it." Would make just as much sense.

It will remain more or less the same, which is slowly getting better. It will not lead to 1. a recession 2. a crash in the pound 3. a fall in house prices 4. a rise in food prices 5. a sharp decline in inward investment 6. the scrapping of all our trade deals 7. weaken workers rights 8.reduce funding for science and technology 9. the reintroduction of border checks in Northern Ireland 10. a second Scottish referendum

I could go on.

 

[Maldini]

I have come to the conclusion that neither side know anything about what is going to happen if we vote leave. The whole thing is getting completely out of hand and campaigners are now trying to save their own sorry political skins.

However, it is the leave campaign, and Boris, Farage and Gove that are really getting on my nerves.

The Boris bus has "we send the EU £350M a week" plastered along the side of it - conveniently omitting how much we get back from the EU
The leave campaign go on about immigration. The 2015 net immigration figure was 333,000 - less than half of which were from the EU
I've heard a lot from the leave campaign about the Lisbon Treaty stating a European Army is to be formed in 2017 with conscription from all countries. Read up on it, that's bollocks
And we get ridiculous soundbites from Boris stating things like the EU prevent us buying bunches of bananas with more than 3 fruit on them. Again, bollocks.

On top of all the lies, the leave campaign are now starting to make statements that sound more like Governmental policy making, "We can take VAT off fuel bills" "We will introduce a points system for immigration" etc Really? So how are you going to do that? You are running a campaign to leave the EU, not to become the Government.

The cynic in me firmly believes that Boris is simply using this referendum as what he perceives to be the quickest route to Number 10. If the result is leave, I fully expect Boris to instigate a vote of no confidence in Cameron with a view to becoming PM himself.

I am sure the remain campaign are probably just as bad, but Boris and his cronies have at least managed to convince this voter how to vote. I'm Remain.

Whilst at the same time the Remain campaign has been nothing but honest.Seriously mate you are living on a different planet.

 

[Maldini]

And the idea that we can instead ship 350 million quid to the NHS is insulting to voters intelligence.

true cost of EU is "Deduct both the rebate (£4.9bn), which is never actually paid, and the money that is paid but sent back from the gross £17.8bn annual “membership fee” (£5.8bn), and you arrive at a net figure of £7.1bn. This equates to £136m a week, less than 40% of the amount splashed on the Vote Leave battlebus."

Still a lot of money but access to the single market creates many billions in trade everyday.

Only £136m? Blimey what can you do with £136m per week these days.

 

[Maldini]

I know what life is like remaining in the EU, and better that than something I don't know.

So you are accepting something you are not 100% happy about rather than take the chance and go for something that might be better?Strange.

 

[beorhthelm]

Each time I see an outrageous quote from one side or the other I try and research it and it seems that both sides are prone to - at best - exaggeration and at worst some downright lies. However the Remain side seem to be less extreme in this.

except their economic analysis. or maybe all their claims, such as:

It will remain more or less the same, which is slowly getting better. It will not lead to 1. a recession 2. a crash in the pound 3. a fall in house prices 4. a rise in food prices 5. a sharp decline in inward investment 6. the scrapping of all our trade deals 7. weaken workers rights 8.reduce funding for science and technology 9. the reintroduction of border checks in Northern Ireland 10. a second Scottish referendum

all of which are speculation, with a couple possible if accounting for worse case scenarios, and some contradictory. renegotiation will not be nearly as chaotic as portrayed, and with over 80% of the economy not directly related to EU trade not as large an impact on the economy as the doomsayers would like to portray.

 

[pasty]

Whilst at the same time the Remain campaign has been nothing but honest.Seriously mate you are living on a different planet.

Which bit of

I am sure the remain campaign are probably just as bad

did you not read?

 

[5ways]

except their economic analysis. or maybe all their claims, such as:



all of which are speculation, with a couple possible if accounting for worse case scenarios, and some contradictory. renegotiation will not be nearly as chaotic as portrayed, and with over 80% of the economy not directly related to EU trade not as large an impact on the economy as the doomsayers would like to portray.

You cannot say it will be otherwise. It is speculation based upon the best available evidence. I don't know why you would trust the Leave campaign on this more than independent and external experts - like the OECD or IMF. Also the uncertainty has already started and is already damaging the economy -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ne-week-low-as-oecd-cautions-of-dismal-globa/

"More than £20bn wiped off FTSE 100 in two days as Brexit fears grip investors
A potent cocktail of Brexit fears, weak factory data from China and a slide in commodity prices, injected a fresh bout of jitters into London’s benchmark index on the first day of the new month.

In just two days, more than £20bn has been wiped off the value of Britain’s biggest companies as investor flee to the sidelines following the latest Brexit polls which showed the Leave camp is gaining momentum in the EU referendum debate."

The OECD said just yesterday that

"The UK's economy would suffer "a large negative shock" if it left the EU, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development said.
By 2020, GDP in the UK could be more than 3% below the level it might otherwise have been if it had remained in the EU, the think tank said.
In the rest of the EU, GDP would be about 1% weaker as a result, it said."

 

[pastafarian]

So you know what the EU will do once we've given them the OK by voting to remain?

simply carry on with the long term plan.
a gravy train that only moves in one direction,stops a few times on the way,occasionally comes off the rails but heading purposefully towards the final destination.

an erosion of all national sovereignty and a federal superstate.

 

[melias shoes]

Corbyn has piped up this morning after a telling off from the organisation that cotrols him. The unions. Trying to tell us that he's firmly behind the Remain campaign. We know diferent though don't we.

 

[beorhthelm]

You cannot say it will be otherwise. It is speculation based upon the best available evidence. I don't know why you would trust the Leave campaign on this more than independent and external experts - like the OECD or IMF. Also the uncertainty has already started and is already damaging the economy -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ne-week-low-as-oecd-cautions-of-dismal-globa/

"More than £20bn wiped off FTSE 100 in two days as Brexit fears grip investors
A potent cocktail of Brexit fears, weak factory data from China and a slide in commodity prices, injected a fresh bout of jitters into London’s benchmark index on the first day of the new month.

because it is speculation based on forecasts that are engineered to arrive at a conclusion. thats the input from other independent analysts. and just look at the "evidence" you present... which factor do you think had an impact on the global mining, oil and finance shares that make up the weight of the FTSE100? (hint: its in bold). and what about the fall, about 1.7% in a couple of days, which is not unusual and its already recovered half that today. the close yesterday was above one week ago and we're around the same point as the beginning of the year. over on the FTSE250, representing more actual UK business, its a similar story. short version, economy is not been impacted by Brexit, there are far larger issue abroad to contend with.

and if the OECD is so concerned about the UK being in EU, then maybe the EU should have done more to offer us some positive changes to address concerns. what the OECD and IMF constant piping up should also tell you is that EU need us, that if we leave it will be in their economic interests to make as good a deal as possible (contrary to the claims otherwise). as you and other like to keep reminding us, they are a larger economy (about 5x), so EU GDP 1% lower is far larger amount then UK 3% lower by 2020, and would put most of EU into recession again.

 

[Maldini]

Which bit of did you not read?

Errr,point being almost your entire post was slating Leave then right at the end you added 'probably'.Geddit?