[Politics] Brexit

[Maldini]

My point is that I responded ironically to the only bit of sarcasm in your post; the rest of it being wild exaggeration. Perhaps it would be best if we both stopped boring everyone else with this exchange.

Then don't provoke and shut up.Goodbye.

 

[drew]

Possibly, that's a matter for them to sort. Not the EU.

The EU are not sorting it out though are they. They are merely saying you can do what you want but if it is outside rules or treaties then you won't get to vote. Poland can decide if that is a price worth paying.

 

[brighton fella]

Crazy but true


About 70% of EU immigrants say they come to the UK because of work-related reasons, as
opposed to study or joining their families (ONS, 2016). Since immigration increases the total
number of people in work or looking for employment, does that mean that UK workers must
have been harmed by this increased competition for jobs?

The short answer is ‘no’. Believing otherwise is called the ‘lump of labour fallacy’. There
would be harm only if the total number of jobs is fixed and only where immigrants compete
for a particular job. But since immigrants also consume local services and goods, this increases
demand and so raises job prospects of those who produce those goods and services. Adding an
immigrant raises the population, just like a rise in the birth rate or a fall in the death rate. Over
the last 100 years, the UK population has grown by around 50% but the unemployment rate
has not trended inexorably upward.
But even if there is no reason to think that immigration should increase unemployment, is it
not obvious that an increase in the supply of workers must drive wages down? Again, it isn’t
necessarily so. Alongside the increased demand that a rising population brings, greater
movement of labour allows countries to specialise in what they are best at, just like increased
trade. Firms will change the mix of their products to account for the new skills available to
them. Immigrants, especially if they are more skilled, can boost productivity. All these effects
will tend to increase wages.
Consequently, the impact of immigration on UK-born workers is an empirical question and not
a foregone conclusion. We need to look at data for evidence.
...


Since then wages had fallen by about 10% – a decline unprecedented since the 1950s. The LSE researchers said the fall occurred when EU immigration was rising – but added that the big pre-crash gains in real wages for UK workers had also coincided with rising migration. As a result, they concluded that the fall in wages was caused by the “great recession”.


http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

Wages for those on the lowest rung have fallen by 1% over 8 years due to inward migration according to Bank of England analysis.

Yep what the hell matters when our very own are being branded bone idle & useless, invite every last one of them in...rapists murderers gangsters & terrorists, f*ck it and f*ck the consequences if it means a thriving economy... . .

 

[The Rivet]

The EU are not sorting it out though are they. They are merely saying you can do what you want but if it is outside rules or treaties then you won't get to vote. Poland can decide if that is a price worth paying.

Yes they are, it's called blackmail.
Just like the threat of 250,000 euro fines per immigrant they refuse to take.

 

[5ways]

Brighton is an exception,it's a very special town that is all too often taken for granted...i don't live there anymore becoming too European for my liking,don't bother going into it too often either....spent over 40 years there.........

Brighton will end up being not so special in years to come due to too many outsiders ruining the place.

I'm sure I'll end up saying the same thing in 40 years too.

 

[The Rivet]

Yep what the hell matters when our very own are being branded bone idle & useless, invite every last one of them in...rapists murderers gangsters & terrorists, f*ck it and f*ck the consequences if it means a thriving economy... . .

Yep, remainers = economy. Money, money, money, self, self, self. Terribly myopic.

 

[drew]

Yes they are, it's called blackmail.
Just like the threat of 250,000 euro fines per immigrant they refuse to take.

That's your interpretation.

 

[The Rivet]

I'm sure I'll end up saying the same thing in 40 years too.

Ahh so the youth view. Thanks for confirmation of age. Figures now.

 

[The Rivet]

That's your interpretation.

Yes it is.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Perhaps that's because many people are on lower wages partly caused by mass immigration?

apparently more like a middle class paradise nowadays

 

[Maldini]

Everyone will have different experiences and I don't take it for granted not everyone wins. But across the whole economy wages have not fallen due to inward EU migration, but due to the recession, and that greater numbers of EU migrants create greater demand in the economy. They also are a net benefit to the treasury and pay more in tax than they take in services.

Migrants do push wages down.Why do you think so many of them have jobs here?Because they will do the jobs we won't?Some yes but many because they will work for less.I don't take all my info from google.I know from speaking to enough people that it's true.As for being a net benefit,I keep asking remainers are these migrants simply replacing tax that would have been paid by a british worker but I never get a reply.

You can find reports that say migrants help the economy and reports that say they have a minimal/negative effect.As it seems they are taking mainly low skilled low paid jobs then they would be paying no/little tax.If there actually is an economic benefit then much/all of this is wiped out by the need to increase housing etc etc etc.
We cannot take 330.000 migrants every year.There is no reason to think this number will decrease.If the Goverment is no-where near their target of 100.000 then
it's a very clear sign that controlling migration whilst in the EU is impossible.

The Remain campaign is built on forecasts and guesswork.It has no teeth and seems to be sinking fast.

 

[cunning fergus]

Or to put it another way, the 63% of the Polish electorate that didn't vote for the current government might take exception to that government interfering with their constitution just because it suits them.

Put it whatever way you like the fact is that the current Government in Poland was democratically elected under its own electoral rules.

If you are saying that it's electoral rules are undemocratic then so are practically all electoral rules around the world. Is this really what you are saying?

Personally I think forcing all people to vote is an authoritarian measure, but as you have demonstrated you like a bit of totalitarianism in the way you are governed.

This is still not the point, the Poles are getting a lesson of EU democracy in action, Given their history I bet they don't like it.

 

[Maldini]

Remainers are obsessed with the economy.They believe if we leave the EU then the UK will have a rough ride.Not a depression but things will be a bit unpleasant.Holidays,phones,food may cost a little more.They believe that is the likely outcome as opposed to us thriving.They would like to be a bit better off whilst at the same time they will experience big intake of migrants.Those migrants may change the face of the town they grew up in,not even speak their langauge but that's ok because they will have an extra £20 a week in their pockets.Perhaps.However,the effect of migration means wages are pushed down and infact that extra £20 is lost.

 

[Maldini]

Being in the EU does not make us safer.Many/most attacks/planned attacks are from home grown terrorists.However being out of the EU is better than being in regards terrorists.Remain think that if terrorists from abroad were to get into the UK then working togther with our EU partners will mean they will not get anywhere.Leave think let's not let it get that far where we need to work with our partners to prevent an attack.Let's just not let them in.Remain think if we left then the EU would not work with us to combat terrorism.Leave know that with the UK probably being at the forefront of preventing terrorism the rest of the EU would not dare not to work with us especially considering the incompetence shown by some EU countries.If Remain will not admit we are safer out of the EU then please do not say we are safer in.That's clearly not true.

 

[5ways]

Migrants do push wages down.Why do you think so many of them have jobs here?Because they will do the jobs we won't?Some yes but many because they will work for less.I don't take all my info from google.I know from speaking to enough people that it's true.As for being a net benefit,I keep asking remainers are these migrants simply replacing tax that would have been paid by a british worker but I never get a reply.

You can find reports that say migrants help the economy and reports that say they have a minimal/negative effect.As it seems they are taking mainly low skilled low paid jobs then they would be paying no/little tax.If there actually is an economic benefit then much/all of this is wiped out by the need to increase housing etc etc etc.
We cannot take 330.000 migrants every year.There is no reason to think this number will decrease.If the Goverment is no-where near their target of 100.000 then
it's a very clear sign that controlling migration whilst in the EU is impossible.

The Remain campaign is built on forecasts and guesswork.It has no teeth and seems to be sinking fast.

I've responded to you saying that you misunderstand that the economy is not a zero-sum game. You do not 'replace' a British worker. The more activity there is in the economy the larger the economy gets. The more people in the economy the more activity there is. I know you're not happy to get your facts form google but this is actual numbers and actual evidence, it might be contrary to your anecdotal experience but the facts show it is untrue across the whole economy.

The economic benefit is not wiped out. EU migrants help pay down the deficit. They are a net benefit, they use less social services than native brits. EU migrants are also, on average, better educated than us - they don't all go into manual work. Walk along Southbank in London you will hear European accents in suits. It is all here if you care to look: http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

But finally you have to stop thinking than a migrant 'replaces' tax a brit would earn. That is simply not how it works. There is no finite number of jobs like there is not finite growth. Economic activity creates more economic activity.

 

[The Rivet]

Being in the EU does not make us safer. Many/most attacks or planned attacks are from home grown terrorists.However being out of the EU is better than being in regarding the terrorists threat. 'Remain' think that if terrorists from abroad were to get into the UK, well, then by working togther with our EU partners it would mean they will not get anywhere. Leave think; let's not let it get that far! Let's just not let them in. 'Remain' think if we left then the EU would not work with us to combat terrorism. 'Leave' know that with the UK probably being at the forefront of preventing terrorism the rest of the EU would not dare to not to work with us, especially considering the incompetence shown by some EU countries! If 'Remain' will not admit we are safer out of the EU then please do not say we are safer in.That's clearly not true.

Agreed, sorry for my editing but I couldn't resist. Love your passion for Brexit. Keep it up.

 

[The Rivet]

I've responded to you saying that you misunderstand that the economy is not a zero-sum game. You do not 'replace' a British worker. The more activity there is in the economy the larger the economy gets. The more people in the economy the more activity there is. I know you're not happy to get your facts form google but this is actual numbers and actual evidence, it might be contrary to your anecdotal experience but the facts show it is untrue across the whole economy.

The economic benefit is not wiped out. EU migrants help pay down the deficit. They are a net benefit, they use less social services than native brits. EU migrants are also, on average, better educated than us - they don't all go into manual work. Walk along Southbank in London you will hear European accents in suits. It is all here if you care to look: http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

But finally you have to stop thinking than a migrant 'replaces' tax a brit would earn. That is simply not how it works. There is no finite number of jobs like there is not finite growth. Economic activity creates more economic activity.

Shut the F up about the economy! Your like a minor bird only taught one mantra. Jeez! There are other considerations.

 

[5ways]

Shut the F up about the economy! Your like a minor bird only taught one mantra. Jeez! There are other considerations.

He quoted me and was saying something factually wrong. But fine.

The EU also helps keep our air and water clean - did you know that over 90% of our beaches are now safe for swimming thanks to EU water monitoring?

 

[The Rivet]

He quoted me and was saying something factually wrong. But fine.

The EU also helps keep our air and water clean - did you know that over 90% of our beaches are now safe for swimming thanks to EU water monitoring?

They could be as foul as a sewer as long as WE control our laws, retain sovereignty and control our borders as far as I am concerned. Yes clean beaches and sea water is desirable (air quality? Walk down the street and breathe deep of the diesel fumes whilst bitching about cigarette smoke) but pales into insignificance compared to self rule and determination. You wont get that being one voice in a cabal of differing interests.

I apologise for using profanity toward you.

 

[drew]

Put it whatever way you like the fact is that the current Government in Poland was democratically elected under its own electoral rules.

If you are saying that it's electoral rules are undemocratic then so are practically all electoral rules around the world. Is this really what you are saying?

Personally I think forcing all people to vote is an authoritarian measure, but as you have demonstrated you like a bit of totalitarianism in the way you are governed.

This is still not the point, the Poles are getting a lesson of EU democracy in action, Given their history I bet they don't like it.

Don't quite know how you extrapolate from my posts that I'm for totalitarianism!!

As for Polish history, they were ruled by the USSR for many years, not sure they will take too kindly to having their judicial systems interfered with. Time will tell but the following seems to suggest more are against the government than they are against the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36236576