[Politics] Brexit

[Westdene Seagull]

So I'll add you to the majority of our brexiteers on here who have just realised that our negotiating position is completely shit and now thinks that 'no deal' is the way ahead ?

I do wish you had given this a bit more thought 2 years ago

If the EU can't even produce the bill then yes. And if you look back over my previous posts you'll see I have always accepted there would be pain in leaving - worthwhile pain.

 

[pastafarian]

I think you have missed the point. There are people on both sides of this argument who frankly have come across as thick through some ridiculous comments and then there are those who are just callous.

There are 3.2 million people in this country. People who came here for legitimate reasons, legally chose to build a life in this country. Now many have to live with an uncertain futures as our government treats them as political pawns.

Whining about money and playing the victim about intransigence, completely misses the point that these human beings deserve some assurances.

Unless you believe that foreigners are somehow worth less than English men. This is not a reasonable and open negotiating stance.

And we have repeatedly asked that this issue concerning EU citizens here and Brits in Europe be resolved as a stand alone issue as a matter of urgency, in order to take away the uncertainty for these people and give these assurances.
There is obviously a major sticking point(and others) concerning whose legal system takes precedence in the event of disputes but even if and when this factor is resolved The EU, not us, still insist they will not ratify away this uncertainty as a stand alone issue.
They want everything agreed first before they put all issues including the issue of citizens rights to the European Parliament for agreement.

The European Council have agreed this method amongst themselves and published it in their guidelines for Brexit negotiations.(Article 2)

“Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately”

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2017/04/29-euco-brexit-guidelines/

Unless the EU are willing to cave in on their entrenched position the issue of citizens rights are a long time away from being completely solved and ratified, doesn’t matter how hard we ask they will not budge.

Pedantry UK citizens are not guaranteed the right to move to another EU country post Brexit. A position of our own making.

This is one of the sticking points
The EU do not want British citizens already living in an EU country to have the same equal rights as EU citizens in being able to move to another EU country post brexit, and insist they can only have rights in the country they are in, resident wise, on the day we leave, our postion is this is wrong and that if they are in Europe already, and already have these rights they should keep their existing rights…….its a bit rich saying this is a position of our own making when it is a position entirely at the insistence of The EU.

See Topic # 23 COMPARISON OF EU/UK POSITIONS ON CITIZENS' RIGHTS
Published by the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/table_-_citizens_rights.pdf

 

[JC Footy Genius]

So I'll add you to the majority of our brexiteers on here who have just realised that our negotiating position is completely shit and now thinks that 'no deal' is the way ahead ?

I do wish you had given this a bit more thought 2 years ago

It's early days plenty of twists and turns to come only an idiot would think the EU holds all the cards or one side has anything to lose. Would you be prepared to accept any deal over a no deal option, if no what would be your red lines in rejecting the deal?

 

[WATFORD zero]

If the EU can't even produce the bill then yes. And if you look back over my previous posts you'll see I have always accepted there would be pain in leaving - worthwhile pain.

Well I'm glad that you think the pain will be worthwhile. Luckily for me, I won't suffer because I'm not a 'business consultant'on short term contracts.

But seriously, there are a lot of poor ******** who are going to seriously suffer out there and a lot of them voted for it !

But I'm sure the fact that you think it's worthwhile will be a great help

 

[Jim in the West]

And we have repeatedly asked that this issue concerning EU citizens here and Brits in Europe be resolved as a stand alone issue as a matter of urgency, in order to take away the uncertainty for these people and give these assurances.
There is obviously a major sticking point(and others) concerning whose legal system takes precedence in the event of disputes but even if and when this factor is resolved The EU, not us, still insist they will not ratify away this uncertainty as a stand alone issue.
They want everything agreed first before they put all issues including the issue of citizens rights to the European Parliament for agreement.

The European Council have agreed this method amongst themselves and published it in their guidelines for Brexit negotiations.(Article 2)

“Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately”

This was always going to be the case...we knew this before we triggered Article 50 - but still went ahead anyway, because we thought we could "have our cake and eat it". The EU's position is just standard negotiating practice. You don't agree anything until everything is agreed.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Well I'm glad that you think the pain will be worthwhile. Luckily for me, I won't suffer because I'm not a 'business consultant'on short term contracts.

But seriously, there are a lotnof poor ******** who are going to seriously suffer out there and a lot of them voted for it !

But I'm sure the fact that you think it's worth it will be a great help

There's a lot of poor ******* ( as so elegantly put it ) that have suffered because we've been in the EU. I'm sure it will be of great comfort to them that you wanted to extend their suffering. And what's all the shit about 'short term' contracts ?

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's early days plenty of twists and turns to come only an idiot would think the EU holds all the cards or one side has anything to lose. Would you be prepared to accept any deal over a no deal option, if no what would be your red lines in rejecting the deal?

Only an idiot would think that we still have time to implement anything we agree.

You really don't get it do you ?

If we finished negotiations tomorrow we are incapable of implementing in time now. You've obviously never worked on any significant project, let alone one that involves government, civil service and politics.

My guess is full membership for another 2 years while negotiations continue.

And the fact that most brexiteers on here now want 'no deal' and off the cliff really shouldn't be a surprise

 

[Jim in the West]

It's early days plenty of twists and turns to come only an idiot would think the EU holds all the cards or one side has anything to lose. Would you be prepared to accept any deal over a no deal option, if no what would be your red lines in rejecting the deal?

It's definitely NOT "early days". The cliff edge is less than 18 months away. If things don't get an awful lot better in the next six months many more businesses will be relocating, and a lot of things will start to unravel. We hold ZERO cards - the EU can just sit on their hands waiting for 29th March 2019 if they want. At which point, with a No Deal outcome there will be a huge number of very negative consequences (no flights to Europe, pretty much no exports to Europe (the hold ups trying to get goods into France or Belgium via ferries/channel tunnel will virtually cease trade within 24 hours). Many essential goods (drugs, chemicals, equipment, etc) will be more difficult to get hold of, and more expensive. The prospect of violence breaking out in Northern Ireland. A large number of EU27 citizens will have returned home - hospitals and other care services will barely be able to function. The pound will have fallen even further. ...etc, etc).

It will be pretty grim. Anyone who thinks "No Deal" is good news for the UK should start investigating the reality pretty damn quick.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Anyone who thinks "No Deal" is good news for the UK should start investigating the reality pretty damn quick.

Not seen anyone suggest 'no deal' is good news - just that it is better than a bad deal and might be necessary.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Only an idiot would think that we still have time to implement anything we agree.

You really don't get it do you ?

If we finished negotiations tomorrow we are incapable of implementing in time now. You've obviously never worked on any significant project, let alone one that involves government, civil service and politics.

My guess is full membership for another 2 years while negotiations continue.

And the fact that most brexiteers on here now want 'no deal' and off the cliff really shouldn't be a surprise

Keep up, we are already looking at a two year implementation/ transition period after 2019.

And the answers to my questions are?

 

[Jim in the West]

Not seen anyone suggest 'no deal' is good news - just that it is better than a bad deal and might be necessary.

It's pretty difficult to imagine a deal worse than "No Deal".

 

[WATFORD zero]

Keep up, we are already looking at a two year implementation/ transition period after 2019.

And the answers to my questions are?

Try reading the post. I didn't say implementation / transition.

And the answers to your questions are that you are too stupid to realise they are irrelevant -

 

[pastafarian]

This was always going to be the case...we knew this before we triggered Article 50 - but still went ahead anyway, because we thought we could "have our cake and eat it". The EU's position is just standard negotiating practice. You don't agree anything until everything is agreed.

You appear to have invented your own timeline.
Their position of individual items(namely in this case citizens rights) could not be resolved separately was not published until after Article 50 was invoked, previously their much published position on citizens rights was no discussions on them at all until Article 50 is invoked.

Her is the opening line from their guidelines

European Council (Art. 50) guidelines following the United Kingdom's notification under Article 50 TEU

On 29 March 2017, the European Council received the notification by the United Kingdom of its intention to withdraw from the European Union and Euratom. This allows for the opening of negotiations as foreseen by the Treaty.

The point is the EU could have been more flexible on agreeing citizens rights through a fast track separate timeline, they dont want this, and your admission that there is nothing wrong with this, its just standard protocol is a poor excuse for The EU(not us) treating citizens as bargaining chips

 

[Jim in the West]

Keep up, we are already looking at a two year implementation/ transition period after 2019.

And the answers to my questions are?

Two years won't be long enough. Do we have even the faintest idea what we are transitioning TO? [By the way, if you do know, please explain it on here, and let David Davies know....

 

[Jim in the West]

You appear to have invented your own timeline.
Their position of individual items(namely in this case citizens rights) could not be resolved separately was not published until after Article 50 was invoked, previously their much published position on citizens rights was no discussions on them at all until Article 50 is invoked.

Her is the opening line from their guidelines

European Council (Art. 50) guidelines following the United Kingdom's notification under Article 50 TEU

On 29 March 2017, the European Council received the notification by the United Kingdom of its intention to withdraw from the European Union and Euratom. This allows for the opening of negotiations as foreseen by the Treaty.

The point is the EU could have been more flexible on agreeing citizens rights through a fast track separate timeline, they dont want this, and your admission that there is nothing wrong with this, its just standard protocol is a poor excuse for The EU(not us) treating citizens as bargaining chips

My point is - you only have to look at other negotiations the EU has held (with Switzerland, with Norway, etc) - their stance has always been "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed". I attended a seminar run by DfT last year (before Article 50 was triggered) and they completely understood this. Unfortunately this was "over-looked" in the clamour to trigger Article 50 and run headlong into oblivion.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Try reading the post. I didn't say implementation / transition.

And the answers to your questions are that you are too stupid to realise they are irrelevant -

We are looking to negotiate a deal by early 2019 then have two years to implement/transition to the new arrangement you are saying a new deal can't be enacted even if agreed now (4 years)?

No we both know you are continuously dodging them because you can't provide an answer.

 

[pastafarian]

My point is - you only have to look at other negotiations the EU has held (with Switzerland, with Norway, etc) - their stance has always been "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed". I attended a seminar run by DfT last year (before Article 50 was triggered) and they completely understood this. Unfortunately this was "over-looked" in the clamour to trigger Article 50 and run headlong into oblivion.

Dont forget with regards to Switzerland it has been a long process of interweaving bilateral treaties and discussions running in tandem over years and years,.......so there is flexibility if wanted. They are being pig headed over citizens rights and not agreeing them until everything is agreed and you know it

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

On 29 March 2017, the European Council received the notification by the United Kingdom of its intention to withdraw from the European Union and Euratom. This allows for the opening of negotiations as foreseen by the Treaty.

The point is the EU could have been more flexible on agreeing citizens rights

The EU published their position paper on this on 12th June, ahead of Theresa May's statement. And when May finally got round to her statement (please note it was just a flimsy statement and not a paper...and we all know what a brilliant public speaker she is) she called on the EU to publish theirs and match hers. The EU reply was "er, we did, and er, it not only matches yours it goes further." How amateur can a PM get?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It's pretty difficult to imagine a deal worse than "No Deal".

One where we pay for access to the single market. One where the ECJ holds sway over our own courts. One where we can't set our own tax rates such as VAT.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

One where we can't set our own tax rates such as VAT.

Sigh. I thought we'd moved on from this nonsense.