[Other Sport] Boxing 🥊 Carini v Khelif.

[Seagull58]

I appreciate it is within your nature to do this, but really?
Is that the benchmark for all women?

She has a physical advantage because of her genetics.
But she was born female and had she not pursued olympic sport, would have lived a life as a woman.

IBF have acknowledged that the specific advantage she has, should preclude her from competing in their competitions.
This is quite an easy call for them, because they administer 1 sport.

The IOC have fudged this issue (presumably because it opens a whole can of worms around classifications in other sports).
i.e should Hermaphrodites (almost certainly no longer the correct term, but apologies, I am old) be excluded from the women's archery?

That is not totally correct. She has expressed a desire to transition to living as a man but it is illegal to do so in Algeria so she is forced to live as a woman.

 

[Freddo]

That is not totally correct. She has expressed a desire to transition to living as a man but it is illegal to do so in Algeria so she is forced to live as a woman.

Please could you share your source for her wanting to transition?

 

[Seagull58]

Please could you share your source for her wanting to transition?

I can't find the source where I saw the information a couple of hours ago. Possibly misinformation that has now been removed

 

[Uh_huh_him]

I can't find the source where I saw the information a couple of hours ago. Possibly misinformation that has now been removed

As seems to be the case with much of this story.

I think this story is a startling example of the dangers inherent , n the way news items are disseminated .
Many people will have seen 2 or 3 pieces on this news item and just accepted it as Trans woman allowed to beat up Cis-gendered woman.

They may never learn the truth and just accept it as woke nonsense.

 

[m20gull]

As seems to be the case with much of this story.

I think this story is a startling example of the dangers inherent , n the way news items are disseminated .
Many people will have seen 2 or 3 pieces on this news item and just accepted it as Trans woman allowed to beat up Cis-gendered woman.

They may never learn the truth and just accept it as woke nonsense.

The truth is in very short supply on this story. As far as I can tell the only organisation that has tested Khelif has decided they are male (and presumably have always been male) based on chromosomes and excluded them from female competition. The IOC doesn't like the idea of testing for this one exclusion rule, though accepts testing for weight and Paralympic categories.

 

[pb21]

Personally I think women who have don't have that advantage, should not be able to compete in sport against women who do have that advantage.

I get this but I'm not going to win the 100 m Olympic gold, regardless of how much training I do, primarily/solely due to genetics. Should others who have more advantageous genetics not be allowed to compete against me?

 

[A1X]

Seems Carini has a bit of history

 

[Curious Orange]

As seems to be the case with much of this story.

I think this story is a startling example of the dangers inherent , n the way news items are disseminated .
Many people will have seen 2 or 3 pieces on this news item and just accepted it as Trans woman allowed to beat up Cis-gendered woman.

They may never learn the truth and just accept it as woke nonsense.

I agree, the story is far more interesting and nuanced than the deliberately salacious headlines.

I was gently amused that you managed to get cis-gendered and woke nonsense into consecutive sentences. Seems to capture the zeitgeist somewhat!

 

[METALMICKY]

There are more then just XY and XX chromosomes. There is XXY and XO. XO is usually with a missing sexual chromosome and can go undetected.

Funny enough I learnt something today. If you want to tell the sex of a chromosome you just pull down the genes!

 

[StonehamPark]

70 posts in and still none the wiser. Has the lass got a sausage and beans or nay?

 

[rigton70]

There are more then just XY and XX chromosomes. There is XXY and XO. XO is usually with a missing sexual chromosome and can go undetected.

That reminds me i need to buy oxo cubes when i go shopping tomorrow.

 

[Triggaaar]

I get this but I'm not going to win the 100 m Olympic gold, regardless of how much training I do, primarily/solely due to genetics. Should others who have more advantageous genetics not be allowed to compete against me?

If we follow what you're saying here, then there shouldn't be a male and female category, it should all be just one category, and may the best person win. Let's just see who has the best genes right. That's all well and good, but you've just basically kicked all women out of professional sport. Pierre de Coubertin would be proud of you.

Assuming you don't want that, then you want a category for women, who share one specific thing in common - a lack of testosterone. Those who get a boost in testosterone due to some male genes would have an unfair advantage against them (which is back to the one category for all idea).

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I get this but I'm not going to win the 100 m Olympic gold, regardless of how much training I do, primarily/solely due to genetics. Should others who have more advantageous genetics not be allowed to compete against me?

I think what makes this case difference is the safety aspect.

If that advantage means you can what someone in the face much much harder than the rest of the grouping, is it safe?

If she was banned before, there must be an underlying concern somewhere

 

[Eeyore]

70 posts in and still none the wiser. Has the lass got a sausage and beans or nay?

It appears not and never has. Which makes the debate a difficult one.

 

[Triggaaar]

The human body is quite a remarkable thing, and there are a number of ways it can f*ck up in development.

Yes, although to be more PC, perhaps we can say that there are a number of different ways it can flourish.

If anything, it sounds like the boxer in question is intersex, in that while they are coded to be male (they have a y chromosome) they developed female sex organs and grew up and present as such. What they won't be able to do is produce female gametes.

What I think we can all probably agree on is that any person who has been through male puberty should not be competing in any physical sports with females, due to their physiological advantages.

It seems the IOC doesn't agree with you (or me).

 

[Triggaaar]

I'm sure you are right about that, but how does one tell what type of puberty an intersex athlete has gone through?

You could test their levels of testosterone?

Are there some women with a Y chromosome who have naturally gone through female puberty?

 

[zefarelly]

70 posts in and still none the wiser. Has the lass got a sausage and beans or nay?

My best guess is a Kabanos and 2 chickpeas.

 

[pb21]

If we follow what you're saying here, then there shouldn't be a male and female category, it should all be just one category, and may the best person win. Let's just see who has the best genes right. That's all well and good, but you've just basically kicked all women out of professional sport. Pierre de Coubertin would be proud of you.

Assuming you don't want that, then you want a category for women, who share one specific thing in common - a lack of testosterone. Those who get a boost in testosterone due to some male genes would have an unfair advantage against them (which is back to the one category for all idea).

I do agree that there should be a category for women only, just not 100% sure how that's defined, and even less sure it should be the amount of testosterone in your body, but appreciate that it may be the best way.

 

[Eeyore]

Poor by the IOC. This is a bloke beating up women.

This isn't a bloke. It is someone who was born female and has remained as such. So it feels very unfair to make accusations like that.

The issue does centre around the difficulties in physicality that the unusual chromosomes combinations cause. Although it is believed to be more common than previously known. That's a debate I'm not sure how to dissect. I understand that the physical advantage is unfair, but I'd be careful not to show prejudice towards the individual.

This debate does throw up an interesting new road though. Some would say that a woman is a person with female genitalia. If that is the case then Khelif is indeed a woman and always has been. She should therefore fight in the female category without debate.

 

[Triggaaar]

I do agree that there should be a category for women only

Poor Pierre.

just not 100% sure how that's defined, and even less sure it should be the amount of testosterone in your body, but appreciate that it may be the best way.

Like you, my genes are not conducive to sporting excellence. I've got XY chromosomes, but I'm not sure which puberty I went through. On the plus side, I haven't gone bald. On the negative side, I can't sing like the Bee Gees. I digress.

But in sport, testosterone seems to be the obvious thing. In general, males are stronger than females because of their testosterone levels. So females who have got male levels of testosterone, specifically due to having male genes, are going to be stronger than females without male genes. That's not about them just having better genes (the opposite of you and me), it's about them having male genes. In what world can that be a fair competition?

The root cause of that high testosterone, is simply the Y chromosome right? I don't see why they don't simply make it that the two categories are a) those with a Y chromosome and b) those without.

Yes there are going to be a few disappointed people, but the alternative is unfair on thousands of athletes.