[Other Sport] Boxing 🥊 Carini v Khelif.

[PascalGroß Tips]

Are we also going to discredit the IAAF on the Caster Semenya case?

 

[highflyer]

The pile-on on Kherif has been largely ill-informed and been made in bad faith by people pushing their own agendas.

Who could ever have predicted that?

 

[fly high]

Apparently high-levels pf testosterone are not always due to the presence of a Y chromosome..

I thought part of the drugs test women had to comply with was for testosterone levels. If they are regularly tested, even out of competition & levels are too high they are banned so why not in this case?

 

[highflyer]

Are we also going to discredit the IAAF on the Caster Semenya case?

View attachment 186424

This reads to me as confirmation that she, as a woman, has a very significant advantage over other women as a result of a specific 'disorder'. So it's a (very difficult) question of ensuring fairness, and safety. It is NOT a question of 'is she a man or a woman', which some people seem to be weirdly obsessed with.

 

[amexer]

In what respect?

To the best of anyone's knowledge:

1. She was born female, in the terms that most of us would understand.
2. She hasn't undergone surgery. to change her sex.
3. She has always fought as Female

If you want to discuss the discrepancies between the classifications between IOC and IBF then feel free, but that isn't a particularly big topic.

It is illegal in Albania to change gender that is why she is still competing as a women

 

[highflyer]

I thought part of the drugs test women had to comply with was for testosterone levels. If they are regularly tested, even out of competition & levels are too high they are banned so why not in this case?

Surely because those levels are naturally occurring and would take 'medical' intervention to change. Rather than having been created through 'medical' intervention. While I think it's two different situations, it doesn't necessarily mean I think she should be allowed to compete. I honestly don't know what I think in that regard.

 

[highflyer]

It is illegal in Albania to change gender that is why she is still competing as a women

She's from Algeria.

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

This reads to me as confirmation that she, as a woman, has a very significant advantage over other women is a result of a specific 'disorder'. So it's a (very difficult) question of ensuring fairness, and safety. It is NOT a question of 'is she a man or a woman', which some people seem to be weirdly obsessed with.

You’re ignoring the advantage being born with male characteristics gives. That’s why people are talking about male or female.

Anyway, I’m out. This is another one of those NSC threads that will go round in circles infinitum.

 

[Beanstalk]

Should never have happened, sorry if it offends but a man should never fight a woman.

Good thing she didn't then isn't it?

If you're not happy getting punched, maybe don't box?

 

[rippleman]

Meanwhile....in the ring.....is refugee Cindy Ngamba. (The first refugee boxer to compete in the Olympics)

She moved to the UK aged 10 and can't return home to Cameroon as she is gay. Cameroon is one of the African states so divorced from reality that they just lock gay people away. Despite having lived in Bolton for the past 15 years, HMG continues to refuse to give her a British passport so she was automatically barred for competing for Team GB.

She is a front foot, coming at ya boxer who competes in the quarter-final on Sunday and will be guaranteed a medal if she wins.

C'mon Cindy!!!

 

[highflyer]

You’re ignoring the advantage being born with male characteristics gives. That’s why people are talking about male or female.

Anyway, I’m out. This is another one of those NSC threads that will go round in circles infinitum.

I'm also out at this point. But just wanted to clarify that I am absolutely not ignoring her (natural) advantage. As I say in another post above, I am conflicted on what constitutes 'fairness'. If pushed, I wouldn't be able to take a position on whether or not Castor Semanya should be competing against other women. Seems to me that someone (unfairly) loses out either way. I just believe that you can perfectly well debate what is fair in sport, without having to get caught up in the obsession that some people seem to have with trying to 'objectively' define someone as a man or woman.

 

[highflyer]

Meanwhile....in the ring.....is refugee Cindy Ngamba. (The first refugee boxer to compete in the Olympics)

She moved to the UK aged 10 and can't return home to Cameroon as she is gay. Cameroon is one of the African states so divorced from reality that they just lock gay people away. Despite having lived in Bolton for the past 15 years, HMG continues to refuse to give her a British passport so she was automatically barred for competing for Team GB.

She is a front foot, coming at ya boxer who competes in the quarter-final on Sunday and will be guaranteed a medal if she wins.

C'mon Cindy!!!

I really don't like boxing. But still...C'mon Cindy! So many different 'in your face's' to be had here. I heard that is that she is being fully supported by the GB boxing team, including having the GB coaches in her corner? Which is nice if true.

 

[Hiheidi]

 

[amexer]

She's from Algeria.

Sorry gender change is illigal in Algeria

 

[rippleman]

I really don't like boxing. But still...C'mon Cindy! So many different 'in your face's' to be had here. I heard that is that she is being fully supported by the GB boxing team, including having the GB coaches in her corner? Which is nice if true.

She certainly does have the support of the GB boxing team. They were keen to have her boxing for us but our governments refusal to give her a passport scuppered it. She is trained by Dave Langhorn, an experienced amateur trainer. But the GB team trainers were in her corner.

Cindy took up boxing because she was bullied at school over her accent. Good luck to anybody who tries to bully her now!

Here is a vid of her win in the last round

Paris 2024 Olympics video: Cindy Ngamba of Refugee Team reaches boxing quarter-finals

Watch as the Olympic Refugee Team's Cindy Ngamba, who moved to the UK aged 11, won her round of 16 bout against Canada's Amanda Thibeault to reach the quarter-finals in the women's 75kg boxing on day five of the Paris 2024 Olympics.

www.bbc.co.uk

Here is a bit of her story

Boxer Cindy Ngamba on fighting for British citizenship and at Paris Olympics

Boxer Cindy Ngamba tells BBC Sport about her journey from Cameroon to England and the challenges she has faced earning a spot at the 2024 Paris Olympics.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Greg Bobkin]

I'm not going to be an expert in any of this - nor do I want to be, because I can't get worked up either way about stories such as this one.

However, purely the fact that - on here, social media, traditional media and pretty much everywhere else - there are two distinct camps about who and what this person is, is clearly an issue. I'm not sure what the solution is, or even if there is one.

All I know is that it's yet another story that divides people and causes a while load of abuse and arguments (and 'hilarious' memes) online and in real life, which is all thoroughly depressing.

 

[Billy the Fish]

However, purely the fact that - on here, social media, traditional media and pretty much everywhere else - there are two distinct camps about who and what this person is, is clearly an issue. I'm not sure what the solution is, or even if there is one.

I disagree about NSC, I think this thread has been pretty informative and respectful of the issue and the vast majority are trying to be objective.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I thought part of the drugs test women had to comply with was for testosterone levels. If they are regularly tested, even out of competition & levels are too high they are banned so why not in this case?

The boxing federation and the Olympic federation use different criteria for eligibility.

It would be useful to remove the 'are you male or female' narrative and instead consider whether the a competitor has an unfair advantage.

Then we can discuss what is unfair.

Being a biological man gives you an unfair advantage in a women's competition.
Having abnormally high testosterone in the blood gives an unfair advantage in the men's and women's competition.

As for the latter, this can then be defined precisely for each biological sex. This is already done because we have decades of data on exogenous administration of testosterone and its effects. We need not worry about how the blood levels of testosterone are 'high', simply whether they are unfairly high, using threshold criteria. This can be defined for each sex in much the same way we set a drink drive blood alcohol threshold.

In fact this is what they did for Caster Semenya. Her testosterone levels are deemed unfairly high. End of discussion. (Except they are still arguing, mostly because the rules have had to evolve and testosterone and biological sex have been conflated inappropriately; will resolve soon hopefully).

(note you can easily test for biological sex based on chromosomes; there is no need to ask them to drop their knickers)

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm not going to be an expert in any of this - nor do I want to be, because I can't get worked up either way about stories such as this one.

However, purely the fact that - on here, social media, traditional media and pretty much everywhere else - there are two distinct camps about who and what this person is, is clearly an issue. I'm not sure what the solution is, or even if there is one.

All I know is that it's yet another story that divides people and causes a while load of abuse and arguments (and 'hilarious' memes) online and in real life, which is all thoroughly depressing.

The correct camp, which most people understand, and the incorrect one, which is noisily trumped by the usual brexitty remainy gammon. Unfortunately if you haven't done a bit of reading and thinking, you can easily fall into the gammon slipstream even if you are a reasonable person with no agenda.

Starter for 3 points: can you explain the difference between gender and biological sex? The sort of man who phones Nicky Campbell in the morning to moan about how we are being swamped by Muslim lesbians etc., certainly can't. But sadly a majority (I suspect) of ordinary decent folk cannot do so either.

 

[Curious Orange]

Starter for 3 points: can you explain the difference between gender and biological sex? The sort of man who phones Nicky Campbell in the morning to moan about how we are being swamped by Muslim lesbians etc., certainly can't. But sadly a majority (I suspect) of ordinary decent folk cannot do so either.

I doubt that the majority of people actually dwell too much on their own sex and gender, let alone worrying about anyone else's.