[Other Sport] Boxing 🥊 Carini v Khelif.

[dwayne]

Khelif is a woman has fought many times without complaint and has yet to knock out an opponent. The boxers that have defeated her including two of Ireland's best boxers did so without complaint. The IBA is a discredited Russian body no longer sanctioned by the IOC.

I saw the 'fight' in question and it seems that Carini just cannot take a punch and should probably have taken up another sport.

Once again a woman who does not conform to a certain idea of how a woman should look gets persecuted. Khelif is who she is is, next we will be complaining that 7ft basketball players have a natural and unfair advantage over shorter players. The pile-on on Kherif has been largely ill-informed and been made in bad faith by people pushing their own agendas.

Yer this is interesting I believe she's lost 9 fights !!! I guess the Italian will make some nice money out of this.

Still don't think the Algerian should be allowed to compete with women though there should be clearly defined boundaries

 

[Greg Bobkin]

I disagree about NSC, I think this thread has been pretty informative and respectful of the issue and the vast majority are trying to be objective.

I'm not on about the respect or tone of conversation, it's the fact that people (and yes, that includes posters on THIS thread) can't decide whether the athlete is male or female!

That, in itself, is an issue.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

The correct camp, which most people understand, and the incorrect one, which is noisily trumped by the usual brexitty remainy gammon. Unfortunately if you haven't done a bit of reading and thinking, you can easily fall into the gammon slipstream even if you are a reasonable person with no agenda.

Starter for 3 points: can you explain the difference between gender and biological sex? The sort of man who phones Nicky Campbell in the morning to moan about how we are being swamped by Muslim lesbians etc., certainly can't. But sadly a majority (I suspect) of ordinary decent folk cannot do so either.

I agree there is disinformation - and many assume it's a trans issue - but I'm not sure it's all a straightforward as that. If it was, the debate would've been shut down and it would go away. From what I'm seeing, it goes beyond just the gender issue and into other areas.

Either way, I don't give enough of a toss about it to get really involved. Mine was more a comment about what we have become as a society where things are either 'right' or 'wrong'.

 

[Balders]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic here, but aren't there already categories within boxing to "ensure fairness" i.e you have to fight in a weight category defined by your weight - the premise being that the heavier you are, the stronger you can punch etc... If you are 96kg and wish to fight in the >95kg category, you can't as you don't meet the eligibility criteria.

Boxing is different to other sports as this categorisation is not only to ensure fairness, but also there is the personal safety aspect.

Effectively the IBC and other sports have added additional eligibility by restricting the levels of testosterone allowed as opposed to the IOC just having a gander at your passport.

A lot of times in sport we are all told what we can or can't compete in due to eligibility criteria to ensure fairness - this is just an extension of same and there is always going to be controversy. Take the categorisation of Para Athletes, there are so many eligibility categories, you either meet the criteria or you don't, yet there are still complaints.

Is Eligibility criteria fair - well that's always going to be subjective.....

 

[fork me]

Ok. So why does she have a Y chromosome?

You could just as easily ask why doesn't she have a penis and testes and why does she have a vagina and uterus?
She has a rare medical condition where although having XY chromosomes she developed female genitals. She was declared female and birth and raised as a girl.

It's a grey area rather than a cut and dried case, and the press reporting of this has been ridiculous.

I feel for the Italian but it's worth noting that Khelif's stats are 9 wins and 5 losses, meaning that 5 women have beaten her.

 

[fork me]

Genuine question: If they have an X and Y chromosome, what is it that makes them a woman, and not a man?

She has a vagina and uterus but no penis.
Babies are not routinely DNA tested at birth and presence of sex organs is normally used to determine gender.

 

[fork me]

You could test their levels of testosterone?

Are there some women with a Y chromosome who have naturally gone through female puberty?

You can test for testosterone, but women produce testosterone as well (Just a lot less than men), and there are medical conditions that make XX women produce high levels of testosterone. There's also a chimeric condition where non-identical twins merge into a single fetus early in development resulting in a baby where some of the cells in the body have XY and others XX. Where do you place them?
The problem is complicated and it's difficult to put rules in place tat cover every eventuality.
This isn't the first time this has happened, remember South African runner, Caster Semenyer?

 

[Triggaaar]

Apparently high-levels pf testosterone are not always due to the presence of a Y chromosome..

When women naturally have high levels of testosterone for a different reason, is there any controversy in them being able to compete?

 

[Triggaaar]

She has a vagina and uterus but no penis.

I'm not sure she has a uterus. I don't really like that we're talking about her body in such a way, but unfortunately it is the general point that needs to be discussed for sport.

Babies are not routinely DNA tested at birth and presence of sex organs is normally used to determine gender.

Of course, and she is a woman. But I personally feel that some tests need to be done for athletes (just as we check them for doping etc).

 

[Triggaaar]

You can test for testosterone, but women produce testosterone as well (Just a lot less than men), and there are medical conditions that make XX women produce high levels of testosterone.

As above, is there any controversy in those women being able to compete?

There's also a chimeric condition where non-identical twins merge into a single fetus early in development resulting in a baby where some of the cells in the body have XY and others XX. Where do you place them?

Do some of them have XY chromosomes because one of the twins was male? If so, and it leads to the individual going through male puberty, I'd think that they'd go in the male category. I understand that it's such a rare condition that the chances of someone with it competing in the Olympics is low, unless they get a huge boost from their male genes and then compete in the women's events.

The problem is complicated and it's difficult to put rules in place tat cover every eventuality.
This isn't the first time this has happened, remember South African runner, Caster Semenyer?

Yes it is complicated. Yes, I've already commented on Caster in this thread.

 

[Triggaaar]

You could just as easily ask why doesn't she have a penis and testes and why does she have a vagina and uterus?

That wouldn't be a very sensible question for why someone was a woman.

She has a rare medical condition where although having XY chromosomes she developed female genitals. She was declared female and birth and raised as a girl.

It's a grey area rather than a cut and dried case, and the press reporting of this has been ridiculous.

I've no doubt that the gutter press are being disgraceful (kinda like my joke at the start of the thread), but I think it's a topic that really needs a solution, and I don't think the current method of categorising athletes is fair.

I feel for the Italian but it's worth noting that Khelif's stats are 9 wins and 5 losses, meaning that 5 women have beaten her.

I don't think the stats matter. Not talking about Khelif here, but if there was someone who was a man, who competed in women's events, we wouldn't say it was ok simply because they didn't win them all.

 

[Curious Orange]

...if there was someone who was a man, who competed in women's events, we wouldn't say it was ok simply because they didn't win them all.

As I said earlier, transgender people are fully aware of what they are. You have to question the moral and ethical character of someone who has transitioned from man to trans-woman and thinks it okay to assume that they should be allowed to compete with actual females, knowing the physical advantages they have.

 

[Triggaaar]

As I said earlier, transgender people are fully aware of what they are. You have to question the moral and ethical character of someone who has transitioned from man to trans-woman and thinks it okay to assume that they should be allowed to compete with actual females, knowing the physical advantages they have.

I don't agree with your term 'trans-woman' or your comparison to 'actual females', and if someone who was a man but has become a woman is a lower class citizen not worthy of being called a woman. But I do agree that they shouldn't be competing in the women's category of professional sport.

 

[Curious Orange]

I don't agree with your term 'trans-woman' or your comparison to 'actual females', and if someone who was a man but has become a woman is a lower class citizen not worthy of being called a woman. But I do agree that they shouldn't be competing in the women's category of professional sport.

I did think quite carefully about which terms to use in the post, and those were the ones that were unambiguous. Though it would seem not as neutral I thought (and intended).

I'm not quite sure where you get lower class citizen thing from, that is quite a leap from what I wrote.

 

[Triggaaar]

I did think quite carefully about which terms to use in the post, and those were the ones that were unambiguous. Though it would seem not as neutral I thought (and intended).

I'm not quite sure where you get lower class citizen thing from, that is quite a leap from what I wrote.

That's just how I read it. I'll change your post here to how I think it will still be unambiguous, without sounding offensive (my opinion only, I reserve the right to be wrong):

"You have to question the moral and ethical character of someone who has transitioned from a man to a woman and thinks it okay to assume that they should be allowed to compete with women who were born female (and haven't gone through male puberty), knowing the physical advantages they have."

 

[Curious Orange]

That's just how I read it. I'll change your post here to how I think it will still be unambiguous, without sounding offensive (my opinion only, I reserve the right to be wrong):

"You have to question the moral and ethical character of someone who has transitioned from a man to a woman and thinks it okay to assume that they should be allowed to compete with women who were born female (and haven't gone through male puberty), knowing the physical advantages they have."

Hmm, we'll have to disagree I think on that one. Which is fine.

 

[AstroSloth]

She failed a gender test on the basis that she has an XY chromosome pair. If that's wrong, and she was born female, and is female, then what on earth is there even a discussion for?

She was banned by the IBA, a corrupt organisation with ties to Russia, after she had beaten a Russian athlete.

The IBA also said that they didn't do a testosterone test, but did another test instead but wouldn't disclose what test it was or what the results were.

It was corrupt and shady to ban her.

I didn't expect there to be so many transphobes on NSC, but here we are the day before Pride having to explain things to people who jump to conclusions to defend their bigotry.

 

[Triggaaar]

She was banned by the IBA, a corrupt organisation with ties to Russia, after she had beaten a Russian athlete.

The organisation may be corrupt, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have an advantage due to having a male gene.

I didn't expect there to be so many transphobes on NSC, but here we are the day before Pride having to explain things to people who jump to conclusions to defend their bigotry.

Wow. Firstly, she's not trans.

And I'm certainly not transphobic. I live with a friend who is transgender and I don't ever think of them as anything but their authentic gender. And I've been busy preparing outfits for pride tomorrow, but you carry on.

 

[AstroSloth]

The person failed the IBF rules to fight as a woman 2 years in a row and was not allowed to fight in the World Championship.

The issue here, is the discrepancy between IOC and IBF.
The IBF rightly (IMO) acknowledge that this particular physical advantage, poses a risk to other competitors.

There is also another factor in this story, Khelif isn't really that good.
It's not like she has a string of gold medals, from smacking all and sundry into the ground.

​

Thats not how the IBF see it ..

Everyone here saying about the IBF, is it actually the IBF that have said anything?

All I've seen is that she was banned by the IBA, a corrupt organisation with ties to Russia, after she had beaten a Russian athlete.

The IBA also said that they didn't do a testosterone test, but did another test instead but wouldn't disclose what test it was or what the results were. The XY comment came not from the report but from a leaked telegram chat. They have released no official evidence.

It was corrupt and shady to ban her.

 

[AstroSloth]

The organisation may be corrupt, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have an advantage due to having a male gene.

We don't even know that she has a male gene. The report has never been published and it's purely speculation. The IBA also isn't recognised by the IOC due to its history of corruption scandals and ties to Putin. She failed one gender test that apparently didn't go through any due process and was sole decision of the governing president and absolutely no clarification has been given as to why or how failed. Just the same guy saying "high testosterone means XY" which isn't actually proof of anything so it's all speculation. She also passed multiple other tests, it's just the corrupt organisation with ties to Russia that banned her after beating a Russian boxer.

Wow. Firstly, she's not trans.

And I'm certainly not transphobic. I live with a friend who is transgender and I don't ever think of them as anything but their authentic gender. And I've been busy preparing outfits for pride tomorrow, but you carry on.

She's not trans no, but people are claiming she is and attacking her due to transphobic views that anyone who has masculine features must be trans, before finding out that she was born female.

Then people start trying to change what it means to be a female.

It's something that affects trans people, whether intended or not.