[Other Sport] Boxing 🥊 Carini v Khelif.

[Triggaaar]

This isn't a bloke. It is someone who was born female and has remained as such. So it feels very unfair to make accusations like that.

Agreed. Khelif is not a man, and never has been.

This debate does throw up an interesting new road though. Some would say that a woman is a person with female genitalia.

I think in the modern world we need to accept that that definition is not correct. A women is a person who identifies as a women. A person with female genitalia who identifies as a man, is not woman.

For sport however, we obviously have to use different criteria. You can't have Tyson Fury saying he identifies as a woman and then go beating the shit out of women.

 

[Eeyore]

Agreed. Khelif is not a man, and never has been.





I think in the modern world we need to accept that that definition is not correct. A women is a person who identifies as a women. A person with female genitalia who identifies as a man, is not woman.

For sport however, we obviously have to use different criteria. You can't have Tyson Fury saying he identifies as a woman and then go beating the shit out of women.

There is part of me that agrees with that and part of me that doesn't. My opinion is quite fluid and subject to new tested learning as it comes along. But that is probably for another, much longer, thread.

 

[Curious Orange]

Are there some women with a Y chromosome who have naturally gone through female puberty?

That seems unlikely, though I don't think puberty is male or female thing per se. It is a process that is parameterised by what is physically present, and starts with the brain signalling the gonads to produce hormones, oestrogen from ovaries and testosterone from testicles, and these then start the development of secondary sex characteristics.

I guess it depends on whether the gonads have been able to functionally develop against type, or at all.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

You could test their levels of testosterone?

Are there some women with a Y chromosome who have naturally gone through female puberty?

Apparently high-levels pf testosterone are not always due to the presence of a Y chromosome..

 

[DJ NOBO]

Heartbreaking seeing the despair of the Italian woman after the event. She would have trained so hard for the Olympics.
Her dreams in tatters. And she will never know if she could have won gold for her country, in a fair contest.
Hang your heads in shame, whoever sanctioned her opponent’s participation.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

I found this quite educational - read the whole thread.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

I read this this morning. The full post on 'X' is quite long



For those that don't want to be taken to the cesspit of 'X' ... here's a couple of screenshots with the main points.

And the key bit for me - assuming this is all true - states, "The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male".

 

[A1X]

Heartbreaking seeing the despair of the Italian woman after the event. She would have trained so hard for the Olympics.
Her dreams in tatters. And she will never know if she could have won gold for her country, in a fair contest.
Hang your heads in shame, whoever sanctioned her opponent’s participation.

She wasn’t going to get anywhere near winning gold with no defence, she’s not a very good boxer if she leads with the chin (and as I posted previously, she has form for giving up when it gets a bit tough and crying about it)

 

[highflyer]

Human beings don't always fit neatly into simple binary categories.

Some of us think this diversity and complexity is part of what makes us amazing.

Others just can't seem to cope with the idea. As per the extracts from the twitter thread that ends with the line 'but they are male'. Are they? Who decides? I don't know this details of the boxer in this case, but I read a long interview with Castor Semenya and she is very clear that she is a woman. Albeit one with some unusual characteristics. Why can't we accept that you can't always draw a neat line? Ees complicated no?

And, as I said on the Olympics thead, if 'safety' is your concern (as it probably should be in this case) then perhaps consider that the 'sport' of boxing itself is the problem? Risks to oneself is one thing, but is there any other olympic sport where the primary aim is to cause physical harm to your opponent?

'Fair competition' is a different question. A complex problem is likely to arrive at a 'solution' that represents compromise and nuance. Which many won't accept. Glad I don't have to come up with that solution.

Here is the final paragraph of a review of Castor's book 'the race to be myself'. I think the last sentence is important:

At the start of her book, Semenya says it’s important to talk about lines. “We humans are obsessed with them,” she writes. “Most people are content to walk the line as it is drawn, to be defined by it, to stay in their place. I am not one of those people.” Or in the words of the CAS ruling: “Natural human biology does not map perfectly on to legal status and gender identity.” Where the line rests in the categorising of men and women’s sport will continue to be hotly argued – but Semenya’s story can help us be mindful of the dignity of competitors on both sides of it

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

Human beings don't always fit neatly into simple binary categories.

Some of us think this diversity and complexity is part of what makes us amazing.

Others just can't seem to cope with the idea. As per the extracts from the twitter thread that ends with the line 'but they are male'. Are they? Who decides? I don't know this details of the boxer in this case, but I read a long interview with Castor Semenya and she is very clear that she is a woman. Albeit one with some unusual characteristics. Why can't we accept that you can't always draw a neat line? Ees complicated no?

And, as I said on the Olympics thead, if 'safety' is your concern (as it probably should be in this case) then perhaps consider that the 'sport' of boxing itself is the problem? Risks to oneself is one thing, but is there any other olympic sport where the primary aim is to cause physical harm to your opponent?

'Fair competition' is a different question. A complex problem is likely to arrive at a 'solution' that represents compromise and nuance. Which many won't accept. Glad I don't have to come up with that solution.

Here is the final paragraph of a review of Castor's book 'the race to be myself'. I think the last sentence is important:

At the start of her book, Semenya says it’s important to talk about lines. “We humans are obsessed with them,” she writes. “Most people are content to walk the line as it is drawn, to be defined by it, to stay in their place. I am not one of those people.” Or in the words of the CAS ruling: “Natural human biology does not map perfectly on to legal status and gender identity.” Where the line rests in the categorising of men and women’s sport will continue to be hotly argued – but Semenya’s story can help us be mindful of the dignity of competitors on both sides of it

Biology decides. If you have XY chromosomes - you are male. The clip I just watched on the news with the Olympic chap saying "if it says female on the passport, they are female" is ridiculous.

Sex determination in humans

When the two boxers were banned by the IBA, one of them decided not to go to CAS. The other one started the process but then withdrew. Yes, those affected deserve dignity - but in sport and at the Olympics, we have two categories. Male and female. How can someone born with XY chromosomes, with testes and all the advantages a make gains at puberty, be allowed to compete in the female category - of ANY female sport.

 

[Curious Orange]

It is quite an interesting moral problem. I suppose the question to ask is if we didn't have all these tests, would we, and they, know?

I think for people with these intersex conditions the answer is probably no in both cases.

This is separate from transgender people, as they most certainly know, even if others might not.

 

[Billy the Fish]

I just had a chance to watch the video.

From what I'd read I was expecting it to be more one sided, Carini wasn't exactly getting smashed to bits.

Tough for both fighters though, one can't help it if they've got a genetic anomaly and it must be hard for the opponents knowing they're at a disadvantage from the start.

In these circumstances the governing body needs to do their job, and they clearly haven't.

 

[beorhthelm]

as far as i can tell the IOC has been caught up in the gender war side rather than the science side. they dont care about your chromosones, if your documents say you're a woman, that's what will go with. the IBF on the other hand doesn't care what your documents say, they go by your chromosones. only, a bit more nuance, the product of them. if you have an abnormal level of testosterone, they'll ban you, because that'll mean you have abnormal amounts of muscle density which really matters a lot in boxing (and most sport).

IOC should have gone with a similar approach, bypass the whole Y chromosome, gender issues with a pragmatic, objective measure on something that makes a significant difference to performance.

 

[Billy the Fish]

The clip I just watched on the news with the Olympic chap saying "if it says female on the passport, they are female" is ridiculous.

This is why the the trans issue is so important.

If the activists get their way and self determination is universally allowed, you know this is the line they'll be sticking with regarding sports participation and other issues.

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

I just had a chance to watch the video.

From what I'd read I was expecting it to be more one sided, Carini wasn't exactly getting smashed to bits.

Tough for both fighters though, one can't help it if they've got a genetic anomaly and it must be hard for the opponents knowing they're at a disadvantage from the start.

In these circumstances the governing body needs to do their job, and they clearly haven't.

This crossed my mind. I wonder what mental state Carini was in at the time given all the commentary and controversy around it.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Khelif is a woman has fought many times without complaint and has yet to knock out an opponent. The boxers that have defeated her including two of Ireland's best boxers did so without complaint. The IBA is a discredited Russian body no longer sanctioned by the IOC.

I saw the 'fight' in question and it seems that Carini just cannot take a punch and should probably have taken up another sport.

Once again a woman who does not conform to a certain idea of how a woman should look gets persecuted. Khelif is who she is is, next we will be complaining that 7ft basketball players have a natural and unfair advantage over shorter players. The pile-on on Kherif has been largely ill-informed and been made in bad faith by people pushing their own agendas.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Hopefully this case will cause a proper review of the whole issue.

The governing bodies need to step back and agree what the criteria are for decided who can compete in the various categories.

 

[A1X]

And, as I said on the Olympics thead, if 'safety' is your concern (as it probably should be in this case) then perhaps consider that the 'sport' of boxing itself is the problem? Risks to oneself is one thing, but is there any other olympic sport where the primary aim is to cause physical harm to your opponent?

Exactly. Inherently some people are going to be stronger than others when it comes to physical sports such as boxing (else it wouldn't be a sport). At what point does that strength reach a certain point, beyond which it is unacceptable, and who gets to judge that?

 

[A1X]

The IBA is a discredited Russian body no longer sanctioned by the IOC.

I hadn't realise the IBA is Russian, a country which spends a lot of time and effort trying to fan culture wars in the west to try and divide society, but now this makes complete sense.