[News] Australian,bush fires.

[BadFish]

not sure if your being disingenuous or not. the accusation is not the Green party but that environmental concerns has led to some policies that have exacerbated problems. its not only in Aus, also US, similar claims from some quarters. its difficult to seperate the hype from mis-information. we have on one side hotter, drier conditions blamed, on the other hand lack of scrub clearance, controlled burns, fire breaks on the other. which is at fault? probably both. its worth noting wild fires in Australia (and California) are normal, even necessary for species of tree to germinate.

The accusations are kind of hard to pin down. I am looking for clarity on the policies that have allegedly exacerbated the problems and am wondering how said policies have made it through parliament with so little Green representation in our parliaments. As you say it is difficult to separate the hype and misinformation. I am not even sure of the 'Greenie' groups or 'Lobbys' that are mentioned in connection with this issue. The ones I am aware certainly don't seem to have enough power or influence to change government policy.

Bush fires are of course normal, however I think everyone agrees (I haven't yet heard anyone disagree) that what we are currently experiencing is very out of the ordinary.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

I really hope the 2020's is the decade the world wakes up to what we are doing to our planet. We don't all need to become Greta Thunbergs, small steps, a good start would be...

a) Vote out governments that are CG in denial, like Scott Morrison, Trump and Bolsonaro (Boris is on watch to see what he does)

b) Starve companies from capital that aren't acting on CG, demand this from pension funds, managed funds etc

The situation in Australian is desperate, it really is the first time a first world country has been massively effected by a CG event, the cost to the environment is unprecedented...

View attachment 118809

This with bells on. I'm shocked (but not shocked) that so many people are in denial or just don't care. The reason people are blaming green parties is because they are reading into then right-wing propaganda machine that is anti green parties and Green Party agendas. We have GOT to start making changes, buying meat locally and still eating less of it, travelling via car less, flying less and pushing for Government urgent action on the issue. Brexit will screw us with no longer covering our Environmental standards as the USA comes begging in with low environmental standards, so my confidence is low. But I have hope.

 

[BadFish]

For Context, this is our current PM, leader of the Liberal Party. This was the Party in government when the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (EPBC Act) was passed. This is the act which as far as I can see contains the laws relating to Bushfire management. We are being asked to believe that this chap's party have been so influenced by the green movement that they should not be held responsible for passing this legislation. For reference the Greens had 1 MP in the federal parliament in 1999.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/...-brings-a-chunk-of-coal-into-parliament-video

 

[portlock seagull]

This with bells on. I'm shocked (but not shocked) that so many people are in denial or just don't care. The reason people are blaming green parties is because they are reading into then right-wing propaganda machine that is anti green parties and Green Party agendas. We have GOT to start making changes, buying meat locally and still eating less of it, travelling via car less, flying less and pushing for Government urgent action on the issue. Brexit will screw us with no longer covering our Environmental standards as the USA comes begging in with low environmental standards, so my confidence is low. But I have hope.

None of which is possible without government akin to martial law being declared. Country needs to overnight shift to a war like footing, similar to 1940, to bring about the necessary scale and pace of change that’s required.

Of course, this won’t happen. So in a word we’re ‘****ed.’ Just enjoy your ice cream before it melts therefore, that’s probably the best, most practical advice on offer in all seriousness. Humanity is incapable of stopping climate change because we’re too selfish and disunited as a species to prevent.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I spent a bit of yesterday (okay too much of yesterday) trying to understand the reasoning behind the arguement that the Greens are to blame for the bush fires. This rhetoric is rife on social media over here and somewhat prevalent on this thread (I am hoping for some clarity on this soon).

I don't doubt that you are right about the far right groups but my research lead me back to Barnaby Joyce - This man:

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...-bizarre-christmas-video-20191225-p53mt4.html

One thing is for sure, For the Greens to have caused this catastrophe they must have far more power and influence than their number of seats should allow them (currently 1 in the federal parliament and 9 in the senate). It is nice to see a political party making so much out of so little. They must be good!

Although possibly I have it wrong as in politics it seems that number of seats and forming governments does not seem to equate to the being responsible for shit. Maybe winning seats just gives you first dibs on who to pass the blame onto.

I am a bit lost for words here.....but I respect your insight.

Here's my take.

Lying shitswivelling *****lardons grizzell gammon into a confection of improbability, and people lap it up.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Marnus Labuschagne 160 not out vs NZ in the 2nd Test. Even he's on fire!

 

[sydney]

Rough diamond and alleged drug-ravaged mentalist but..... man of reason. Fact

made me smile....only rarely a drm these days.....it just helps me deal with the pond life.

 

[sydney]

The accusations are kind of hard to pin down. I am looking for clarity on the policies that have allegedly exacerbated the problems and am wondering how said policies have made it through parliament with so little Green representation in our parliaments. As you say it is difficult to separate the hype and misinformation. I am not even sure of the 'Greenie' groups or 'Lobbys' that are mentioned in connection with this issue. The ones I am aware certainly don't seem to have enough power or influence to change government policy.

Bush fires are of course normal, however I think everyone agrees (I haven't yet heard anyone disagree) that what we are currently experiencing is very out of the ordinary.

there may be accusations but cold hard facts remain

natural groundwater has been siphoned from water ways under licences which have been sold by governments to private concerns for horticultural and mining projects......in some instances these private concerns are very closely linked to current LNP members and 2 cases it's first hand involvement.

rfs and vfs have suffered huge budget cuts in the last 18 months ......govts have been warned by experts that the build up of ground fuel in areas where controlled burning has been stopped is reaching a critical level and in some cases is a disaster waiting to happen .......fines have been issued to people who have burned parts of their property without permission.......at the end of the day it all comes down to money , Morrison donates 110 k to his Hillsong church in Sydney for security...Dutton is given over 4 million in govt. grants to bring his day care centres up to scratch , another minister in this govt. has also leaked fake news to papers to discredit the current mayor of Sydney in a mayoral election in which his wife was a runner. Barnaby Joyce got his p.a pregnant , dumped his wife and kids and then became a stay at home dad whilst securing the mother of his child a 200k p.a position ....he is also heavily involved in the water scandal that is yet to be fully unearthed

unfortunately this govt. appears to have more bad apples than good , Morrison , who was sacked from the tourism board in 2012 for impropriety( very hard to be sacked as a govt. employee) is happy to be filmed at his Hillsong church , weeping and wailing , mumbling incantations and cadences to his big friend in the sky........it really is a bad joke.Him lurching through fire ravaged towns expecting a civil welcome is like somebody stealing your ladder and then expecting you to be happy when they bring it back to let you down off your roof.

the weather and firebugs are another facet of this disaster but above is a bit of an insight into why people are reacting in this way to the idiot morrison....the old firefighter who refused to shake his hand had just heard that his property had gone up in smoke.......and he's got some smirking gimp wanting to shake his hand for the cameras.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Only thing I'll say re the Australian Greens stuff: I'm reliably informed by folks I know in Australia that the original sources for all this guff are far right groups who've seeded anti-Green propaganda onto Facebook, which has then become "truth" as so many people don't fact check.

I'm not pro-Green party (mostly as they don't have the policies to be trusted to govern), but by the same token I dont believe they are on any way to blame for the current situation. It's much bigger than them.

Nah that's flat out wrong.

It began at a time 30+ years ago when the early Greens protestors would be chaining themselves to trees in forests, sabotaging work equipment etc to stop logging and it's grown from there.

A lot of people who hate the Greens have been Union card carrying people who've had their livelihoods impacted by Greens influence over the years.

For regular people they see a lot of Greens on local councils these days spouting garbage and passing moronic bylaws and regular people see stuff like this and just overall have a negative opinion of them.

 

[Buffalo Seagull]

For Context, this is our current PM, leader of the Liberal Party. This was the Party in government when the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (EPBC Act) was passed. This is the act which as far as I can see contains the laws relating to Bushfire management. We are being asked to believe that this chap's party have been so influenced by the green movement that they should not be held responsible for passing this legislation. For reference the Greens had 1 MP in the federal parliament in 1999.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/...-brings-a-chunk-of-coal-into-parliament-video

The link you provided has the following quote: “The state and territory governments have primary responsibility for care and management of the environment. National environment law does not generally regulate fire prevention measures taken by state and territory governments, and only applies in limited circumstances.”

The federal government really doesn’t have much of an influence in the way these emergencies play out.

A lot of the anger directed at Morrison over the last few weeks has been, in many ways, misdirected. We’re dealing with an emergency, the scale of which is unprecedented. If Labor had won the last election, the situation we’re facing today would be exactly the same. Morrison’s failings in the last few days have been bad from a PR point of view, but they haven’t affected the way things are being handled on the ground.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Still waiting for evidence of this. I think people give the 'greens types' credit for way more influence than they have ever had.

Would be very interested to read any info you have on this though.

Sent from my Redmi Note 7 using Tapatalk

Their influence is at lobbying levels, at local levels through passing council bylaws etc that have grown from there.

While the Greens are a middling political party they are a huge lobby group behind that political status.

An example is how they have lobbied over the years for people who want to use National Parks for recreational purposes to be banned from doing so.

We had a few farms in our family and the bureaucratic red tape now to be able to clear certain things and conduct fuel load burn offs became such that many people out in the country just stopped doing it because it was just too much bullshit now to do something that previously was done with little fuss.

That of course increased fuel loads.

That red tape was most definitely influenced by policies/decisions involving Greens type lobbying.

 

[sydney]

48 degrees c in western sydney today with hot desert winds from the west .....just spoke to people there ....hell on earth...

 

[BadFish]

The link you provided has the following quote: “The state and territory governments have primary responsibility for care and management of the environment. National environment law does not generally regulate fire prevention measures taken by state and territory governments, and only applies in limited circumstances.”

The federal government really doesn’t have much of an influence in the way these emergencies play out.

A lot of the anger directed at Morrison over the last few weeks has been, in many ways, misdirected. We’re dealing with an emergency, the scale of which is unprecedented. If Labor had won the last election, the situation we’re facing today would be exactly the same. Morrison’s failings in the last few days have been bad from a PR point of view, but they haven’t affected the way things are being handled on the ground.

I'll be honest, in that i find the whole state versus federal to be confusing (the conspiracy theorist in me suspects that it is deliberately so). I used that example as this seems to be the go to page for environment management laws and that bill was passed at a federal level.

I completely agree that a Labor government have presided over a similar situation. My interest was more about why the Greens or Greenie lobby groups (or whoever these vague shadowy groups are) are copping so much flack for this disaster with so little influence. In fact given that the responsibility for said fire prevention is at a state level I can't help but wonder why the Andrews government is not copping much more criticism.

 

[Buffalo Seagull]

I'll be honest, in that i find the whole state versus federal to be confusing (the conspiracy theorist in me suspects that it is deliberately so). I used that example as this seems to be the go to page for environment management laws and that bill was passed at a federal level.

I completely agree that a Labor government have presided over a similar situation. My interest was more about why the Greens or Greenie lobby groups (or whoever these vague shadowy groups are) are copping so much flack for this disaster with so little influence. In fact given that the responsibility for said fire prevention is at a state level I can't help but wonder why the Andrews government is not copping much more criticism.

Andrews has handled the PR side of things well so far. The authorities here did well to recommend that people leave East Gippsland a couple of days before the fires took off last week. It kind of prepared everyone for the worst, which meant there wasn’t any great surprise when the fires came through. It also gave them a defence against the people who chose to stay, but then complained about the lack of support and supplies on the ground. Indeed, I’ve seen several comments on social media blaming these people for the situation they find themselves in, rather than the authorities. I also think most Victorians are familiar with the type of landscape the fires are burning in, and are realistic about how they can be fought.

 

[BadFish]

Their influence is at lobbying levels, at local levels through passing council bylaws etc that have grown from there.

While the Greens are a middling political party they are a huge lobby group behind that political status.

An example is how they have lobbied over the years for people who want to use National Parks for recreational purposes to be banned from doing so.

We had a few farms in our family and the bureaucratic red tape now to be able to clear certain things and conduct fuel load burn offs became such that many people out in the country just stopped doing it because it was just too much bullshit now to do something that previously was done with little fuss.

That of course increased fuel loads.

That red tape was most definitely influenced by policies/decisions involving Greens type lobbying.

Surely this bureaucratic red tape needs process to be followed to be enacted into bylaws. I am really struggling to believe that this Green lobby group (who are we talking about here?) have so much influence that they can affect said bylaws without the support of people within the councils or wards. I am interested to know how this lobbying and bylaw situation plays out.

I have had a quick look at the Ganawarra Shire website to try and find out more about said red tape. This is what i found.

https://www.gannawarra.vic.gov.au/News-Media/Apply-for-fine-fuel-fire-permits

To burn off fine fuel a permit is required and you are not allowed to burn off on total fire ban days.

Is this the red tape you are talking about? If not could you please post an example of what you are talking about?

To be honest I am still finding the accusations against the 'Greenies' to be vauge and tricky to pin down.

I now understand that the green lobby are not influencing policy at a federal or state level but still do not really get who these groups are or what bylaws they have influenced at a more local level (the Ganawarra shire requirements seem to me to be fairly standard). Can you help me out? Throw me a link?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

48 degrees c in western sydney today with hot desert winds from the west .....just spoke to people there ....hell on earth...

Haven't you ever been to the outback like Coober Pedy before?

 

[BadFish]

Andrews has handled the PR side of things well so far. The authorities here did well to recommend that people leave East Gippsland a couple of days before the fires took off last week. It kind of prepared everyone for the worst, which meant there wasn’t any great surprise when the fires came through. It also gave them a defence against the people who chose to stay, but then complained about the lack of support and supplies on the ground. Indeed, I’ve seen several comments on social media blaming these people for the situation they find themselves in, rather than the authorities. I also think most Victorians are familiar with the type of landscape the fires are burning in, and are realistic about how they can be fought.

The Age is pretty positive here (I suppose it would be)

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...this-crisis-and-it-shows-20200103-p53onk.html

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Surely this bureaucratic red tape needs process to be followed to be enacted into bylaws. I am really struggling to believe that this Green lobby group (who are we talking about here?) have so much influence that they can affect said bylaws without the support of people within the councils or wards. I am interested to know how this lobbying and bylaw situation plays out.

I have had a quick look at the Ganawarra Shire website to try and find out more about said red tape. This is what i found.

https://www.gannawarra.vic.gov.au/News-Media/Apply-for-fine-fuel-fire-permits

To burn off fine fuel a permit is required and you are not allowed to burn off on total fire ban days.

Is this the red tape you are talking about? If not could you please post an example of what you are talking about?

To be honest I am still finding the accusations against the 'Greenies' to be vauge and tricky to pin down.

I now understand that the green lobby are not influencing policy at a federal or state level but still do not really get who these groups are or what bylaws they have influenced at a more local level (the Ganawarra shire requirements seem to me to be fairly standard). Can you help me out? Throw me a link?

This is the kind of crap that gives the bad PR for the Greens and is why people associate a lot of the views they have of them and their supporter base.

 

[BadFish]

This is the kind of crap that gives the bad PR for the Greens and is why people associate a lot of the views they have of them and their supporter base.

View attachment 118833

As much as I disagree with what these people did back in September this particular piece of evidence hasn't really answered any of my questions.

I did a bit of extra digging though and wonder if the group responsible was this lot http://geg.org.au/?paged=2&cat=1 . Not sure if they are responsible for any red tape though.

I posted a link earlier about how less prescibed burning was able to be done due to the longer fire seasons, due to climate change. I wonder how disruptive the protest you have cited was compared to that.

I am still wondering who these green groups are and what bylaws they are changing through lobbying. I now understand that this is at a more local level rather than at a state or federal level.

Out of interest how much responsibilty would you assign to the greenies for the current fires. Any chance of a %?

 

[sydney]

Haven't you ever been to the outback like Coober Pedy before?

yes , yes i have .....forgive me for pointing out that there is precious little vegetation to burn in Coober Pedy unlike the Blue Mountains area where the wind is pushing the waragamba fire eastwards....there will be a southerly change this afternoon pushing the fire northwards towards heavily populated areas and the great western highway...!! the main route from sydney to the mountains....my brother in valley heights, ex sister in law in mt. wilson and nephew in woodford are all on high alert , packed up and ready to go....i know you aren't stupid but your comparison to Coober Pedy is.

Also an area known locally as the Blue Labyrinth an are only fully explored/accessed in the last 10 years ...a series of deep, heavily , vegetated valleys with houses perched on the escarpments ....i'll leave it to your imagination.